Move speed, along with range, is a binary stat. If you are faster you can always catch and never be caught. In a vacuum nothing can be done about it. It also is constant in that everything uses move speed. Dodging, going to lane, jungling and roaming. AD doesn't do anything when you aren't using it.
Ok. So it means they have A TINY AMOUNT of EXTREMELY dedicated players. However as a % of the overall players who play a certain champ, they're still a tiny minority. This has to to be the case by default right? Where as if you compare to yasuo, there is probably a much higher % of its player base who can be said to "main" him.
Depth as defined in the graph = total number of games/total number of unique players. This metric is shown to be low for A-sol. When you're saying "A-sol has high depth", you're talking about a different definition.
I'm saying only a tiny % of the A-sol players are mains(the champ is not mostly played by mains). But you're saying that tiny % plays him a shit ton(the few mains he has plays him alot).
Am I misunderstanding anything where? Thanks for the input. But I think this new info isn't contradictory to anything I said before.
You are indeed correct, what I intended to communicate is that when you remove the LOWEST depth players from the equation, ASol has a lot more of those than other champions. So as you remove the 1 game players, ASol's depth rises more than other champions to the point where for players who play, say, 3+ games on a champion only, ASol now has the highest depth.
His breadth is stupidly low yet he HAS borderline median DEPTH. People that all have 1 game on him have exactly that 1 game. It won't reflect on DEPTH at all. Yet he has that depth.
edit: /u/NovaAsterix, please could you help with this one?
I have arrived. One thing to keep in mind with that analysis is it's showing all players. The amount of folks who play 1 game and bounce is exceptional for champs like ASol and Singed due to their unique kits that have little overlap with any other champions. When you start to filter out the 1 and dones, the trialists, etc; Singed, ASol, Fiddlesticks, Anivia etc. are THE highest depth champions.
Basically, you won't see them often but they will often be very high mastery points when you do and if they aren't...well good luck.
I am no statistician, but isn't drawing conclusions from a single set of data a flawed concept? Isn't that the whole reason meta-analysis exists?
It seems what has been done is a risk assessment. The community has no idea what the threshold would have been for NB to stay permanent (most people on reddit just remember waiting a minute before getting a game and thought the game mode was thriving).
I am not saying your conclusion is wrong or what Riot are doing is wrong (can't blame them for not wanting another Twisted Treeline on their hands) but definitively dropping the game mode after bringing only bringing it out twice still hurts.
What we showed is a piece of the data we have and explore. It tells the simplified story and I agree with you that a lot more went into the decision :)
To be clear, the biases you outlined are real and part of the day to day of doing my job. While many confounds exist, controlling for them matters only if the impact of the bias outweighs the effect we see. All the biases you listed, let's say they doubled NB hours if they were all holding NB back even then it's still not close enough. It could even be argued the timing helped NB, Ranked is off, it's kinda down time, people are likely burnt out on SR after grinding, etc. The clarity of the bias AND the impact on outcomes are both highly dubious using that reasoning.
We also did % of total hours but chose to go with absolute for the messaging. % of total hours isn't that different, it's not like everyone abandons LoL at that time of year. We also have to account for the trend, growth or stable engagement is key. NB was fading and still hadn't reached a steady state by the end of it's run.
Read moreOne stat we track is how much a game snowballs or how much an early lead determines the outcome. Turret Plating was made, in part, to smooth out early snowballing which had gotten pretty severe coming off of mid season. It really worked out in a really brilliant way.
Curious are you able to share any stats on how veteran league players from other regions interacted with NB
While I ran the numbers to make the call, I don't have any stats handy. We did look at engagement by how long players have been playing and it didn't trend up; older accounts definitely played more.
to be fair to reddit, the region that was most engaged in Nexus Blitz was NA (reddit being english speaking and primarily NA with a splash of EUW).
that likely influenced the perception that it was more widely played. Also I’d hypothesize that the audience types that we saw engaging in NB were even closer to the more active reddit users in NA.
Additionally, NB was actually resonant with the intended target: more tenured players who were looking for a quick LoL experience with some spice to keep it from being boring or solved. The thing is that the target audience (myself included) was smaller than we expected :|
It sucks we can't be super transparent about that stuff and only ask you to trust us but so it is.
Serious question: Why should fans of Twisted Treeline, Dominion, Nexus Blitz, and "abandoned" champs trust Riot with anything these days?
Why should they have faith in Riot when every communication targets the players for being too small of a base to cater to and not the company for failing to promote and improve the experiences? Why should they be excited for TenCent's answer to not getting DotA Chess from
Why should a Taliyah main believe that Riot's working on a skin for their champ when Lux, Ezreal, Akali, Ahri and other "popular" champs are getting shiny and pretty new skins every 6 months?
Why should any of those "abandoned" players have faith that Riot actually cares about them and not just the mainstream, easily satisfied, "Riot can do no wrong" cheerleaders?
Everything we do is a trade off and every trade off has a cost and we do our best to get the most value out of each trade off we make.
One thing we try to do to proportionally serve players is look at Games since Last Skin (one of many things, not the only thing by any means). It's a good way to combine time and popularity. Frankly, some champions just aren't popular...like by a lot. Taliyah is currently 1/10th as popular as Akali and 1/20th as popular as Ezreal. And at her best, the most popular she has been outside her launch (mid 2018), she was 1/5th as popular as Ezreal...and factoring in China it was still under 1/10th.
I do find it a bit harsh to imply the vast majority of players are easily satisfied and blindly applaud us. They are satisfied because we satisfy them because our decisions aim to satisfy as many players as possible compared to the cost. Everything players give back to us goes into making more things for them. That's how businesses work. But we have to pay our ...
Read moreDo you have some data on OFA and AURF, if they're the Modes that get significant amount of traction for a RGM
Last OFA as around 12.5% of hours by the end and ARURF was around 20-25% by the end of the last long run.
But in China, OFA was ~20% of hours and ARURF closer to 50% by the end of the runs. The global view is very important. NB was struggling to crack 2% in China when we turned it off. Odyssey at 3%.
We don't care about data, you don't get killed for running TFT and a RGM like Odyssey or Invasion at the same time!
You're right, the team that is working on making and supporting TFT is the same team that would do RGM stuff. I'm not in the position to comment with full context on that decision so this is more my personal understanding (not Riot's stance): Yes we could turn them on but that isn't free and as (un?)believable as it is, each mode needs people to work on it each time we turn it on even if it's QA for how OFA Sylas will work or something. It's not just a switch to flip.
And to reiterate, we intentionally moved resources onto TFT and if you don't like TFT then you'll feel abandoned and, honestly, rightfully so. At the same time we, as Riot, want more folks to enjoy our products. Having players engage with LoL and now TFT let's us fund things like new games that we are working on. It sucks we can't be super transparent about that stuff and only ask you to trust us but so it is.
Read moreIf you don't mind me asking, what were the numbers like for odyssey?
Odyssey was similarly ~3% (a bit lower) by the end. Odyssey dropped off real fast though, as you can expect from somewhat limited content. When we look at other data it actually decayed in a similar way to a Path of Exile content drop (a premier PvE game) but at an even faster rate.
Thanks for answer, can you elaborate on whether burnout because of actual grind for missions was ever considered to be among the main reasons for falling hours of NB?
Not really because we saw it drive engagement when it was on. By the time we got to the end, it was such a small % of hours that there were few reasons big enough to save it.
All this being said, the group that did play the mode REALLY did play it a ton so I totally understand the passion.
Until Riot shows ACTUAL data. I don't believe a single word. Any person can say it didn't have the numbers. I want facts. Cold hard data.
I don't play SR because it's just not fun to me. ARAM and the other game modes were great for me. TFT I just can't get into and I'm not saying they should get rid of it. But Riot stopped the RGM that they switched out often for awhile for no real reason.
Hey it's me, the guy who does data for LoL and informed the NB call (as a hard NB main)
By the end of the first and second run NB was around 3% of hours. The second run was looking better until we turned missions off and then it went down to the same spot as the first run.
As for TFT, yeah it's more like a new game so I don't doubt LoL players will not care as much for it. TFT is doing great several month post launch, 20-40% of hours depending on the region and holding steady. It also added net hours to the pie whereas every other LoL-like mode tends to just move hours around save for ARURF.
Read moreyes but wrap up says it had success but they dont add it anymore
weird logic
It hit the target audience as intended, and had some initial success but it simply wasn't played enough overall to convince it was worth making permanent.
And those that feel strongly about missing it (myself included) are part of that target audience, hence the success. There just aren't that many of us.
Prob same reason why URF (original urf nor arurf) wont come back, players play the game mode so much they burn out and just stop playing league overall and riot loses players.
Original URF and even ARURF crests 50% of hours in some regions, Nexus Blitz struggled to break 5%. Not even close.
Literally any post about NB: Amazing gamemode, i miss it so much. No hate in the comments, only sad people missing it.
Riot: Not enough players played it according to our SHTASTICS, so fuck everyone who want NB.
Any thread with even 2000 people mourning the mode just means 2000 people feel strongly about the mode.
There's several million others out there who simply don't care about the mode and probably don't even know what Reddit is.
But it was a beta unfinished game mode? It makes sense people wouldn't want to play something that isn't unfinished and has some glaring flaws, especially after you force them to play it with extremely grindy missions during an event. Also if the ridiculousness of certain rewards was toned down it would probably attract a lot more players.
Also I bet it was more popular than Twisted Treeline.
The second run was closer to what would be permanent. We put in a solid amount of work from the alpha and saw underwhelming results. If we saw overwhelming results we'd have invested more. Maybe this is a non linear relation and getting over a hump would cause it to stick more but there are other things to work on and we made a call.
pray tell, what's the hour percentage for twisted treeline?
Even lower, but that's not the point. TT is pretty negligible but adding/swapping to something that isn't exactly lighting the world on fire doesn't solve any problem.