Spideraxe30

Did the idea of a support marksman come from the same thinking behind Pyke being a support assassin

No, it came up because we wanted to do Senna, and we felt that she should be a Marksmen since she clearly used a gone pre-lantern since she gave hers to Lucian. We also wanted her to be able to lane with Lucian, which is how we landed on creating a support Marksmen. We did want to make a support marksmen one day anyways and Senna just fit that glove perfectly, but it didn't start from that idea, it started with the goal of making Senna, and that felt the most right for her

Spideraxe30

Are there any concerns that Senna may end launching poorly since she’s only showing up week 2 of PBE, despite August slaying bugs all day everyday

No because she will technically be on PBE for 2 weeks still

goku332

Will we keep getting champs from existing lore like Senna and Kai'Sa? I ask because it feels really cool like a nod to fans who keep up with that sort of thing and it helps flesh the world out to me, so to speak.

So far we have seen strong sentiment from it so it’s 100% something we want to do in the future if it makes sense. As a longtime LoL player and fan getting the chance to be part of bringing some of these characters to life has been a dream come true. The exciting thing about having more games (and even a animated show!) coming is that we will have even more places to draw from to do things like this in the future

Spideraxe30

Could you share any cool stuff from her development like product, temp name and prototype model

I mean she was always Senna since day 1 so she never needed a temp name. She was just Senna :)

Spideraxe30

Hey Reav3 could I ask if Senna isn't actually evil/corrupted due to her time in Thresh's lantern, since I don't think Lucian could take it

She's not evil or corrupted, but she is now basically made of black mist. Using her abilities as a Sentinel she can purify the mist and use it as a weapon. This is also why she has control over the form she manifests. She chooses to make herself look like she looked when she was human, unlike most of the Shadow Isles Champs which can't control the mist and thus manifest as twisted versions of there former selfs

It's because the Sentinals are there own thing, agnostic of any one region

Ilyak1986

So, I'm definitely failing at being clear here. I certainly didn't mean to convey the idea that a champ like Irelia/Akali/Yasuo--I.E. some high-agility, high-mastery champion should have a mastery curve with an identical shape as "my first League of Legends champion" Garen.

What I meant was that in a perfect world, every champion has a distinctly unique champion curve that ultimately averages out to an identical winrate over some number of games--say, 200. That is, a Garen might have a much higher winrate for games 0-20 (he's an easier champion), but would top out at the back end at a much higher spot--that is, Garen might top out at 51% for someone that "mastered" him (say, 200 games), while Irelia might top out at 57%.

Essentially, that each champion should have a unique "ease vs. ceiling" tradeoff. So a Garen's mastery curve would be shallower--it starts higher, but tapers off lower, than an Ionian champ (Akali, Riven, Irelia, Yasuo, Zed)--someone new to them would feed the first 10-20 games, but then once they learn the tricks and the skills, would be able to carry more games on the unique strengths of their champion.

As for "super OP in competitive play", my frustration there is that pros do things that solo queue players simply can't. That's why you might see 20 kills in a 40 minute long pro game, while in a 40 minute solo queue game--even in high diamond, you'd see around 70 kills in that same timeframe. Pros also have their coach pick drafts such that champs can flex between top and mid (Renekton), mid and jungle (Qiyana), support and top (Shen), bot and mid (Tristana), or 4 different positions (G2 on Pyke, before you guys nerfed him =P). I think that's a much harder problem to solve, but I hope that solo queue players don't pay the price for that, which is what I think happened with some champions (Irelia, Sylas, Sejuani, Azir, Corki, among others).

Sure, but different Champs also have different curves in different elos, which complicates the matter (This doesn't even take into account proplay) Like here is Garen vs Irelia in high elo 2100+

https://imgur.com/a/Sa556O2

By your theory Garen and Irelia are balanced and have similar mastery curves in high elo

Ilyak1986

NOW WE'RE TALKING. This is exactly the sort of data I wanted to see! Thank you so much!

I'm seeing that once you get higher up the "previous games" curve, that the data starts becoming a bit fuzzy--for instance, Akali's mastery curve starts to really encounter some noise. I am guessing that this means that a very small proportion of players actually play her for that many games.

How does that compare to someone like say, Shaco, Karthus, Kayle, Zac, Rengar, or Khazix? For instance, when I sort the LoLalytics table for this patch by main winrate (that is, the yellow win column), I see Shaco at an astounding 60.9% main winrate.

My assertion/frustration is that there may be some champions that are just outright better than champions like Akali, Yasuo, Riven, Irelia, etc. at every point on the curve. While I am fully willing to concede that champions like Ionian hard-to-master champs should definitely be lower starting out, what my concern is--is that they're lower on the tail end of the mastery curve. Meaning that these champions aren't just "hard to master", but actively punishing--that there's never a payoff for having a large amount of games compared to an easier champion.

That may be, but that doesn't mean these Champions can't be healthy for the game. Shaco is a bad example because he is clearly overtuned right now. The size of player base also tends to skew the winrate , so Champs like Trundle that have a small dedicated player base are always going to rest at a higher winrate, this is also compounded by the fact that they appear in less game so players have less experience playing against them. Popular champs like Akali, Irelia and Yasuo appear in many games so the community also has more experience playing against them.

Ilyak1986

So, first off, is there a discord channel that you frequent that one can have a bit of a back-and-forth dialogue with you? The data sites I frequent seem to be immune to pulling data from into an R instance, and I'd love to work with even a fraction of the data you guys at Riot work with that you use to justify your decisions.

As for addressing Yasuo: again, I submit that there's a lot of popularity factor going into his playrate. That is, if he looked like a pile of goo, and wasn't voiced by one of the most talented voice actors in the world (Liam O'Brien is awesome), and just "felt awesome" to play, I think his playrate would be much lower.

For instance, if Yasuo had Shaco's absolutely unreal statistics, I'm sure he'd get absolutely hammered.

Regarding mastery curves: finally, I've succeeded in making myself clear (I'm probably not too good at that :( ). My frustration, I suppose, is that there are champions in this game, that are most likely strictly better than other champions, across all points on the mastery curve. That is, a Shaco (going to use him as my whipping boy right now because his winrate is just unreal, and he's also aesthetically hideous. He's a freaking clown, for god's sake) just seems to win a higher proportion of his games than an Irelia or Yasuo the average winrate, and also at a "main" winrate, according to LoLalytics. Ergo, I would not be surprised if he had a higher winrate for any number of games compared to Irelia, Yasuo, or Akali. While I am fully on board with the idea that a hard to master champion might not crest into a positive winrate for a higher proportion of games--after all, that's what makes them more difficult), my concern is that they're not better on winrate statistics than an easier-to-play champ at any point on the mastery curve.

That is, consider this little mockup image of hypothetical mastery curves. My frustration is that for the pain one goes through (all the 1/10/3 games one might have early on trying to learn, say, Yasuo or Akali), that once you get to the tail end of the curve, you just have some person spamming the crap out of Shaco having the time of his life on Summoner's Rift, for less effort across the board.

I understand that champs like Yasuo or Akali may be popular, because a fantastic amount of work went into their visual, skin, and audio appeal (Yasuo is a badass samurai and delivers on the fantasy of playing a wind samurai, Akali's a punk ninja, and seems to deliver on that fantasy of playing a punk ninja), but as far as actual wins and losses go, I'm not sure that if we set the aesthetics aside, that these champions deliver on the raw effort/reward compared to some others.

Am I being clear here, or am I missing something?

You are, but I'm not sure making every Champion in the game have the exact same mastery curve would make the game better. It would also make some champs super OP in competitive play, and the changes we would have to make to fix all those problems would would end up making the overall Champion cast less diverse and unique, because you would have to make every Champion very similar to each other to achieve that result. I think LoL is a better game with lots of different Champions with different mastery curves, abilities, etc. For example, the changes that would be required to make Irelia have the same mastery curve as Garen, and also not be a proplay problem would probably require us to dumb down her kit a lot. I don't think that would be better for Irelia, or that whatever that kit ends up being, it would still feel like you are playing a Blade Dancer, since the theme implies skill and agility

QUINN_VALOR_VGU_WHEN

Hey Reav3, seeing as Quinn may be on the next VGU poll, is there any way I could sign up for any potential playtesting or feedback for her VGU? I’ve been playing and thinking about the champion for years, and have even done some art exploration of potential thematic directions, including what she might look like as a Raptor Knight. I’d love to add my voice to any aspect of her development I can, for whatever little my opinions are worth — though I do live a ways away from California (Miamian here).

It might be possible, ask me again if/when she goes into VGU development

IWantOffMrBones

Dude, sorry but what the fuck? What is your opinion about Vladimir? Do you honestly believe he is okay for the game when the majority of the playerbase hates on him? Mundo? Who is viable only because he has been flextaped into it since he is so ancient that there was one effect ruining his whole idea but the balance team made sure this isn't a problem about him anymore. Tryndamere? A walking paradox of a super cheesy champion and walking ultimate in the same time, not even fullfilling his fantasy. Zilean? Who is .. strange. There isn't meaningful cointerplay to his bullshit but because he is so unpopular it is fine.

Like I can understand you hate the bitching of current mains every time you change their obscured character. I get it you care about them since it shows with Pantheon or Kayle's rework, even the fact you are keeping the point and click fear of Fiddle, even though everybody but them hates it.

I am not even trying to bitch at you, though it looks like this, I just want to know your opinion since I respect you. But yeah fuck Vlad.

I didn't say there isn't still Champions that need VGUs. There clearly are since we are still doing them. I don't think you can compare Vlad to old Urgot, for example. I just said there wasn't as many champs that are in serious need of VGUs as there were a couple years ago.

VniSalska

I know that some self-proclaimed champion mains get upset because fo reworks but it is healthier for bot game and lol universe, don't you think so?

Reworked champions can easily be integrated the other Riot games such as TFT, Legends of Runeterra etc. I'm not even talking about in-game related stuff because there is no need.

Thanks to the hard work you guys put in the previous years, there are very few champs left that should be reworked.

I feel like, Other than 3 candidates that were included in the poll, namely Shyvana, Dr. Mundo and Shyvana, there are 6 more champions that need rework asap. In my opinion, these champions are: Skarner, Malphite, Kog'Maw, Cho'Gath, Udyr and Corki.

I feel like you could've slowed down the rework train after getting these champions. But I totally understand your concerns. It is fair.

I don't want to bother you but I'd appreciate it if you can answer one more question: I know due to the resource-scarce, you stopped updating skin splash arts and I get it. For example, Fiddle has a lot of skin so the artist are probably busy enough these days.

But, have you considered updating base splash of some champions which are not going to get any Visual/Gameplay update anytime soon? For example, Hecarim. His Legends of Runeterra arts are much better than the current one we have. Kassadin and Jax are my other candidates. Their splash arts are not up to the standards imo.

These single pieces of art updates should not be much of a problem, but you guys know better of course.

I mean I agree, that's why we are still doing VGUs, and still plan on continuing VGUs in the future. I can't comment on splash team as I generally don't like to talk for other teams at Riot

Ilyak1986

Thank you so much! Yeah, these charts sort of confirm some of my frustrations. Namely that it seems like these "hard to master" champs might never eclipse an "easier to play" champion like a Garen, or this patch, a Shaco.

Ideally, in a perfect world, every champion gets a chance to shine after some amount of games. That is, do you want to just one-trick 2-3 champions? Well, maybe you can swap between Irelia, Akali, and oh, Camille. Want to play a bunch of champions? Maybe pick up some easier-to-get-going-with champions like Shaco, Garen, etc.

However, what would distress me is that as a a player, if your goal is simply to maximize winrate, that there are champions you should never play (any hard to master champ, pro-play taxed champs like Sejuani, Tahm Kench, etc.).

Some champs, I'll concede, are simply problematic when they're good (Tahm), but I certainly hope that champs like the aesthetically awesome Ionian champs aren't among them.

The thing is we have over 140 champs in the game. I don't think the game would be a better designed game if all of them had the same mastery curve as Garen. Some players like hard champs and some like easy champs, and imo the game is better when there are all kinds of Champs with different classes, abilities, mastery curves, etc. I think this works the best when the theme matches the skill fantasy. For Irelia, Akail and Yasuo for example there themes imply skill (Samurai, Ninja, and Blade Dancer) so it makes thematic sense that you would have to play them a lot to master them, since the power fantasy of those archetypes imply that you have to train proficiently to be good. This is why I think those champs have very high playrates despite being hard to master, where-as the Tham Kenchs theme for example doesn't match up with the idea of mastery and skill.

Ilyak1986

:( :( :( :( :(

Irelia is in such an awful state right now it's sad.

And then when I asked /u/Reav3 about her mastery curve, he gave me a fucking popularity chart. Well, no wonder.

Also here is her 100 Game curve compared to the same Champs

https://imgur.com/a/q5ji6hD

VniSalska

Do we have a new poll for a reworked champion after Fiddle and Voli?

I remember in previous poll both Fiddle and Voli got 24 percent whereas Shyvana got 20 percent of the votes.

So I'm wondering if you'll go with Shyvana (pls) or there will be another poll or none at all?

Btw I'm very sad that you decreased the number of reworks. I think reworks are more exciting than new champions but that's just my two cents.

There will be another poll sometime next year. This isn't to say we wont start another VGU independent of the poll.

I think reworks are exciting as well, but they come with a cost that new champs don't come with (Change aversion and frustration from some of the current mains of the Champ, some love it of course) And we have reached a point where the Champs on the current list don't need a VGU nearly as bad as many of the Champs where we were doing them more frequently. I still feel like it's a valuable product though so we don't plan to stop doing them anytime soon

Ilyak1986

Reav3, with the majority of the games at World's finished, Irelia's coming in at around 7% pick rate and 20% ban rate. She falls through most picks/bans regularly, her bans seem incredibly questionable given that next to nobody picks her up when she's let through. You guys at Riot utterly crushed her when her solo queue numbers were in a reasonable spot as early as Patch 8.23, when her average winrate across Diamond+ globally was 48.9%.. Ever since then, it's felt that every single change has been directed at dislodging her from pro presence that was the result of artifacts present in pro-play only (flex pick drafting, extreme amounts of coordination). In pro games she was picked at worlds, she's won 3 of 7, and very easily could have been 2 of 7 had HKA not hard thrown vs. C9. In those games, her damage % share is tiny (less than 20% in several of them), which shouldn't be the case for bruisers/divers building trinity force.

I am not sure how one interprets a champ in pro play status that A) has a low presence, with B) the majority of which being bans and C) who doesn't highly contribute to her team's victories when actually picked when looking at statistics. My interpretation is just that some teams either A) have very questionable drafting, such as Team Liquid, or B) that Irelia might be a holdover comfort champ for some players (maybe on GRF, who have shown they can win just fine without her, and she'd be a wasted ban), so might be a targeted ban--though, once again, highly questionable given other, higher priority picks.

At which point will you say that you guys hit her far too hard, and that the reward for playing her--in winrate--just doesn't justify all the time spent in misery trying to learn her and getting loss after loss?

The whole "some people enjoy champions that are harder to master, without any actual payoff in terms of quantitative payoff", just seems to fly in the face of human nature to me. That is, would you expect that anyone would want to work harder and longer at a tougher job to not be rewarded with higher pay? That seems completely incorrect. If learning a champion is seen as effort, then I ask--again--what, and where (as supported by quantitative data)--is the payoff?

It definitely looks like there is a bit of room for Irelia buffs. It's something we want to look into soon. As for the hard to master argument that it flies in the face of human nature, that just has been proven incorrect by data. Yasuo, for example, is by far the highest played the Champion in the game globally (and it's not even close) and he has one of the steepest mastery curves in the game, with players not getting to a positive winrate on him until like 50-100 games. Akali currently still maintains one of the higher mid lane pickrate despite also being very difficult to play

Ilyak1986

:( :( :( :( :(

Irelia is in such an awful state right now it's sad.

And then when I asked /u/Reav3 about her mastery curve, he gave me a fucking popularity chart. Well, no wonder.

Sorry, I couldn't find the mastery curve Tableu page when u asked me before. Here it is now

https://imgur.com/a/j4e2e71

Edit: Sorry I had accidentally forgot to sort by the most recent patch so that was a aggregate of all her patches, here is recent patch data

https://imgur.com/a/8iw9iOa

This shows that her mastery curve is currently on par with other high skill Champs like Yasuo/Riven

Gutrot10

So will the new champ be good for non-juggernaut players wanting to learn a juggernaut?

for sure

IWillNameMyChildZoe

no ionian juggernauts? Maokai can do both tank and juggernaut

Maokai is a Shadow Isles Champ

Soxviper

What about the juggernaut? Weren't these two supposed to come out before the end of the year originally?

Who said that?