But then why are Brand and Zyra for jungle buffed when they have no pick rate at all? This is even more niche than sera mid.
Seraphine was not a popular mid laner even when strong. Brand and Zyra have never really had the chance. For reference, either Zyra or Brand Jungle is currently closer to Seraphine Mid's pick rate than Seraphine Mid is to Support. And Brand/Zyra jungle are quite bad.
because yall didn’t balance her properly around mid like we were promised?? She couldn’t lane against most laners especially with shit like horrendous 19 base armor like make it make sense? All the mid players went bot because of a balancing failure you guys permitted you guys never truly prioritized mid even when she was released like we were promised. If you guys actually went through with what was expected and killed support seraphine way earlier then we wouldn’t have this issue. Yall keep fucking forcing mages to become supports and it’s frankly exhausting and disgusting
She was like a 53% win rate mid laner on release.
Are the current changes final? A lot of peopled liked the faster Q missile speed buff but it was just reverted. Plus the W mana cost nerf along with the base mana nerf is a bit rough. Will there be follow up for her if she ends up bad?
I think Q speed is a good change for Mid/Support but the internal feedback was that these changes were too much power so we had to start cutting somewhere.
I'm a big believer in E rank-up and AS Growth to help mid specifically. The re-shape to Q damage is a support buff at all points in time and largely a buff to APC/Mid. The W changes should be a huge feels win for support as well (better at applying Echoes of Helia and Censer, stronger synergy with Redemption and such if you choose) but the heal cut marks a substantial power decrease overall, which is the primary nerf of the change list.
If she's weak everywhere, Q missile speed is the first buff I'm putting in. If she's OP, we have to find something else to cut.
Read moreIs this supposed to be power-neutral on support Zyra? This seems to be a nerf on Zyra's main role to support a fringe playstyle. Losing 40 base on E seems really harsh.
The nice thing about closing role gaps is that if Zyra Support is bad, we can pretty easily just buff it, whereas if we wanted to buff mid/jg Zyra right now we couldn't in good conscience.
I expect the changes to be roughly neutral. Early lane is strictly buffed due to AP ratios buffed and E not losing damage until level 4+, while Q is always better.
Y'all gotta stop picking the max level of abilities and saying, "Oh I lost this" as though the preceding levels or other abilities have no impact.
That's not to say Zyra couldn't lose win rate here, it's certainly possible.
Read moreadc main who complained about adc being weak for years joins the balance team
Damn you're really upvoted for this?
I'm the guy who came into "Sneaky gets oneshot by face checking a Kassadin" and telling the ADC players they're delusional for thinking he shouldn't die there.
Like c'mon y'all, you're not even trying anymore.
Today's story time is brought to us by Zyra P cooldown:
Zyra P's cooldown is not actually implemented as a normal cooldown like "go on cooldown for 12 seconds" but instead as "number of 0.25s ticks". This is defined as 50 ticks at level 1, then -1 tick per level. With 0.25s ticks, this should come out to 12.5s-8.25s total cooldown.
Except, due to server framerate, a 0.25s tick is actually a 0.264s tick. This means the effective cooldown actually becomes 13.2s-8.712s. Despite this, the spell still calculates itself as if it's using 0.25s ticks.
But also, the server actually waits an additional 0.25s tick (really 0.264s tick) afterwards before actually spawning the next seed. This brings the real effective cooldown up to 13.464s-8.976s.
In order to account for this, the game does a bit of fudging for the visuals. The icon cooldown indicator simply adds a flat 0.75s to the intended value to get it to match up better. This is mostly accurate, coming out to 13.25s-9s, but is still not perfect, although this indicator is purely visual so it's not like you're gaining or losing any seeds by it being inaccurate. You can also see the difference, as at level 1 your seeds will noticeably wait a bit after the cooldown comes off before spawning, while at level 9 it's almost immediate, due to the closer timing match.
Meanwhile, the tooltip tried to approximate the cooldown differently, but only listed it as "13s / 12s / 11s / 10s / 9s @ 1 / 5 / 9 / 13 / 18". The tooltip has now been changed to 13.5s at level 1, then -0.25s per level (9.25s at level 18), which while still not exactly accurate is still an improvement.
Also very much worth noting that they do in fact possess the ability to make this spell work like a normal cooldown, like other passive cooldowns, but they just chose this instead, along with all the bandaids necessary to cover up its side effects. I was hoping that these data changes would be indicative of such a rescript, however a new calc was also added that corresponds to the "50 ticks -1 per level" formula, implying that this tick-based system is still in place, and it's just a visual improvement on the tooltip. But, I'll need PBE to come back up to be able to notice the presence or absence of these side effects to know for sure.
edit: PBE actually came back up right after I posted this and yep it's functionally unchanged and still wonky
Yeah I didn't bother trying to rescript Zyra passive. Maybe one day.
Accurate all the same.
Very interesting to do this rebalancing on multiple support mages at once. Does anyone have any more context from the balance team on what their end goal is here?
Obviously they have spoken about Seraphine but I hadn’t heard anything about Brand or Zyra being lumped into this. But with that being said neither of the above changes will likely do too much to either of them.
It’s nice to see Zyra with a bit more scaling, ever since her rework she has been slowly pushed into being more and more dependent on snowballing to be effective in mid/high elo. I don’t think this will really significantly move the needle, but a little is nice.
Seraphine: Bring Bot and Support closer together in power level so that we can tune one without breaking balance thresholds on the other. Mid Seraphine has a 0.25% pick rate and if she becomes non-viable, that's acceptable collateral damage since it has less than half the pick rate of Jungle Teemo for example. As a side benefit, further delineate the outputs of AP Seraphine vs. Enchanter Seraphine builds.
Brand: See if we can make him a viable jungler. Changes are relatively low scope and were low time investment.
Zyra: Make good on the Zyra jungle buffs from earlier this year. The real hopeful upside is shifting her ability rank and gold scaling to make Mid and Jungle better for her, while keeping Support at a relatively equal power level. Much like Seraphine, if we can close the gaps, that's good.
Read moreAs much as Phreak deserves criticism for being ADC biased when balancing he is not a programmer - these bugs are definitely not his fault.
So TECHNICALLY they are. I didn’t do many of the script changes on K’Sante’s update but the project is still ultimately my responsibility.
I got some help from Milio’s designer on Friday looking into some things and fixing this bug in particular.
Seriously though, it really seemed like you didn't know that K'sante passive scaled his entire auto attack's damage.
I know it amps everything on the mark.
i dont know if anyone responded to you about the base form tap W, but what I did was hit E W W as fast as i humanly could, and so far it seems highly replicable. i'm able to do it almost 100% of the time, and i'm sure a player mechanically better than me would be able to not only get that same consistency but also utilize it in real games.
for proof, here's me hitting it over 30 times in a row after around 20 minutes of practice: https://streamable.com/6983pw?src=player-page-share
the third dash can be performed more quickly by using Q at the end (which is the spaceglide combo OP posted). in most of these i didn't use the Q at the end though since I kept forgetting.
I appreciate it, thank you :)
Looking at Data the "Average game length" hasn't really changed drastically, around 20ish seconds.
On average, High Elo games still end in 25-ish minutes
And low elo games still 30-ish.
If snowballing was significantly reduced, i'm guessing we'd see a perceptible increase in "Game length"? But that doesn't look to be the caseNvm, Phreak just stated otherwise, and he has the full picture, so he's likely correct.
Changing average game time by 20 seconds is significant movement.
Also the feel of the game is more important than the length of the game. Late game means more than early game already: Kills leave you dead for longer and they're more likely to lead to a Baron, Inhibitor, or another valuable objective.
Of course if it goes too far, it makes the game feel like nothing matters until 20 minutes. Some amount of the game must snowball to be fair.
Anyways, this is all to say snowballing appears to be substantially down without a huge increase in game time, which are both pretty desirable outcomes.
Read morewould love to see rioters react to this tbh
Hi
How do you get base form tap W to work? I've only tried for a couple minutes but no amount of mashing buttons or mouse clicks is getting me there.
All-Out W is trivial but base form is stumping me.
Also some of these combos are cool AF. If you wanna W-R to cancel the dash go for it. I don't intend to fix that.
Do i smell an oppertunity for negotiations? 👀
there are a lot of bugs you could fix while you are at it
Hit me with it.
I went into /ksantemains after we went to PBE but a bunch of them looked like they were Live bugs so it was hard to parse what was new.
Oof that's not great. We'll investigate why this happened and fix it ASAP.
Edit: Found it. I didn't cause it! (sorta). We expect to micropatch it today.
Why did u make tank jgl, who can easily spam gank as well, as consistent in farming as a farming jgl. Aren't jgl matchups mainly balanced around farming and ganking? How does it make sense to give a champion that can spam gank also the possibility to farm when he can't gank. As a jgl, if u pick a certain champion "i wanna spam gank this game" goes through his mind, but for the cost of "this might not work, but i will risk it". Your changes just removed the difference of the champions played in the jgl and there won't be a "i sacrifice my early for mid-late" anymore cuz u cant outscale a rammus that can alternatively farm when a lilia or karthus cant "spam gank", or it will at least be very hard so they will mainly farm their camps, or am i wrong? You can correct me here if so
In general, I'd rather all champions enjoy farming their jungle. I think it's valuable that everyone feels supported by their primary income stream.
This means making resists scale your monster damage appropriately and not disproportionately aiding AD champions in that regard. Some champions are going to be faster than others, sure, but Malphite top doesn't get less XP/min than Tryndamere just because he kills the minions slower. I'd like to bridge that gap in jungle somewhat.
Regardless, the point isn't to make champions early or late game skewed. Maokai is actually a scaling jungler. He just also has sick early ganks. He's actually just OP.
Read moreThey changed the attack range for the jungle pet. Either the bonus XP range was set to the same range as its attack range, or they just changed any range value they saw to the new attack range.
Entirely different cause.
master yi also doenst get full exp when he is in alpha strike. I WAS IN ALPHA.
It appears that's the same bug as the Shaco one and will be fixed by the micropatch.
I assume the micro patch will also fix it when it comes to untargetable people ? Same bug happens with Master Yi Q, Maokai W etc
Yes.
Will the bug making Illaoi literally unplayable right now also be micropatched?
Yes.
it happens if you're untargetable when the camp dies, yi's Q for example
Thanks for chiming in. That should be fixed by the changes above.