I don't see the need to suggercoat things and hope to prevent you to take this misstep regarding the set effect. As I said, why add an awfull effect if you can leave out the effect instead.
Without saying what it is you don't like about it, there's really nothing I can do with this feedback. You may have really good points about why it's worse than nothing, but since you haven't told me them I don't know what they are.
I guess that's a valid point. I also am tempted to dare you to test me, because honestly I love hearing suggestions regarding how to fix tank armour / shields because it reminds me of the good ol' days of Runescape.
I suppose the issue comes from I was thinking of a fix to tank armour as a collective whole, like a change to how stats are formulated and all that, which is why I strongly believe that it could be a straightforward fix, as opposed to taking the time to give set effects or whatever to each tank set. It would still take time, but not as much as if you assigned an effect per set, or gave each set an effect in addition to a general buff.
As for the big about how the M & S rework helps the case, normally I would agree (and I feel like this point is a little unfair, given how much work and how passionate you guys appear to be regarding the re-work) but Jagex as a whole has more than under delivered on a number of things and there is a huge lack of faith around. My original comment stems from the fact that myself and a number of clanmates are rather fed up with the typical responses that indicate that an issue is acknowledged but being shuffled around some backlog off out of sight. From a neutral standpoint you are correct, but it's hard to view it from that point with how things have been of late. That's not to say you or the rest of the M & S team are responsible for that, it's just the way it is right now. You guys are definitely getting better about things, but wounds over this aren't going to heal instantly.
I do look forward to the day that we can see Tank armour and even shields be more relevant, I hope that with weapon diversity coming sometime soon-ish we can see things like shields being more useful than just a switch as well as tank armour being fixed as well.
A final question, if you don't mind. Due to my recent work schedule I've not been able to watch the live streams or get ahold of anyone on the M & S project to ask, and I've not seen it answered anywhere in the TL;DW posts: Are there any plans that should weapon diversity go well that the remaining weapons be filled out post M & S rework as QoL updates / ninja updates / reward space? I realize you might not be able to say where the update might fall, but has there been any kind of discussion regarding potentially filling out the missing weapons?
Not "plans" in the sense that it's scheduled, but if it makes sense as an update then it's a good option, but it would very much depend on what the other competing options are.
Hmm okay, I must have misread the M&S rework wiki then. Thanks for the reply.
It's possible the wiki was out of date even though the design had changed.
It's only outclassed when you have access to it, though. The playerbase isn't all maxed out, not everyone who has the levels for it has access to T90 armour. There are still reasons to justify fixing tank armour as a whole even if it's outclassed by something else. The fact that tank armour has been pretty much useless since EoC launched back in 2012 is ridiculous, and the fact that you're trying to justify not including it is arguably so as well. If there is no point in retroactively adding in these items, why are they being added in the first place? I don't mean to sound rude or pissy, but I'm honestly baffled how an argument can be made for having the mining and smithing rework and yet not addressing an extremely large issue at / around the same time that is only going to continue to get worse as time goes on.
I'll end on a positive note, since I wasn't expecting a single reply from you, let alone two; issues with tank armour and incomplete weapon tiers aside, the beta has done more for my interest in Runescape in the past 3 weeks then the majority of this year has done to date. If nothing else, I'm extremely grateful for the time that was put into it and even if all the issues that I've addressed, both on this post and others, aren't addressed by release, I'm convinced that the update is going to be a runner for one of the best updates of 2019. So big thanks to you and the rest of the developers of the re-work because it's been a long time since I've been able to say I was genuinely excited for an update.
Really glad to hear you're enjoying it.
The problem with developing, especially in a live environment, especially for a game that's been running and updating continually for over 15 years, is that everything is a tradeoff.
In isolation I completely agree with you. Tank armour should be fixed. (You probably wouldn't agree with me about the fix I'd implement, but regardless we agree the current situation is silly.) Low level tank armour should be fixed.
But fixing things takes time. It's not that we begrudge the time, it's that we try to spend our time wisely. It's easy to say "this ought to be fixed out of principle" but when it comes down to it, which fix is more important? I have players angry that there aren't more quests. I have players angry that there isn't more skilling content, or that skills are or aren't going to 120, or that there are still empty chunks in certain quests. I have players angry that weapon style diversity isn't in, or that weapons don't have interesting spe...
Read moreHow long ago, the beta was only out for the last couple weeks?
I think it was over a year ago, but it could have been only eight months or something. It did initially require PVM to repair, but that was around the same time it required dragon to make as well.
1 - Was fairly well executed, although it does not interest me a lot of people I know are enjoying the new achievements
2 - Very very useful, more QOL then an update though
3- I love that you are giving us a BETA environment, would be better if we had more supplies to provide us. (currently unsure but when i tried, you could not get the t92 armour for free, I am a pvmer and I wanted to test it)
4 - Ok Quest, Not a fan of quests, but I know a lot of people enjoyed it. Hope that it opens to something bigger.
5 - EU pissed cuz of prices. Personally I will most likely get it, but lots of mixed feelings.
6 - Again, I dont really care about MTX as long as we get good updates. This was not an update.
Looking forward to winter weekends. :)
There's an NPC inside the door at the artisan's workshop who can give you free T92. If it's not on him, try the other one.
I feel as if this should have been it's on project developed alongside the M&S rework way back when in 2016 because it was just as much an issue then as it is now. The fact that you guys are getting ready to release 4 tiers of useless armour is a bit disappointing. If an update to address this was coming out with / around the same time as the M&S update then it would be understandable, but given how you guys are with getting issues like these resolved, it's very likely that this won't be addressed by 2020 and the 4 tiers of armour will be useless the whole while.
I'm not upset that the M&S rework doesn't cover this, I totally understand the fact that it's outside of this scope, I'm upset that despite the fact that the M&S update is coming out and will make this issue even more apparent, nothing is being done about it in an attempt to resolve it. This'll just end up as more unfinished business that may or may not see the light of day by 20XX.
I think you're worrying too much about the low tier tank gear. Even if low tier tank gear was useful on low tier content, high tier tank gear already exists. The nature of the way it works is that orikalkum armour would be totally outclassed by elder rune armour. That's the problem with retroactively adding in armour.
Alright if you guys feel you can't add extra dmg power on top of everything the armour already has. In the intrest of not making players even more powerful, Here are a few other suggestions that don't buff damage, but also don't feel like set effects that would work way better for tank armour.
Bind a target (not stun), if they are out of melee distance from you.
The armour can "drag", enemies within 2 squares of you towards you
A chance to prevent opponents from healing
Berzerk will no longer reduce your armour rating while being used.
Chance to temporarily freeze prayer drain, (your prayers remain active but do not drain points)
Bleed Abilities (Blood Tendrils, Slaughter, Dismember, etc) have a chance to be dealt as a single hit as opposed to damage over time.
I get that the issue of tank armour is out of the scope of this rework, and that's a completely fair response. However with this update you guys are introducing multiple sets of tank armour into the game, one of which is fairly high level (Elder Rune), and two sets of top tier power armour. Because of this you still have to contend with the issues that we have with armour right now, so while there's no expectation to solve the problem. Don't make it worse by putting a tank effect onto power armour.
As for the degrading question, I say no. This armour will be expensive as is, and honestly everyone who uses it will quickly augment it. So no point adding extra utility to this armour, when honestly it won't be very much used in it's non augmented state.
The degrading bonus applies even if it's augmented.
The problem that's going to keep coming up is this armour's set effect seemingly suitable for tank armour, but I think a lot of people are overlooking another aspect of tanking with Melee. The vampyrism items (aura, scrimshaw, blood essence) are items to help users tank, but they rely on DPS output entirely. Trimmed Masterwork Armour works because the damage bonuses from power armour allow the effect to fully utilize vampyrism items in order for Melee to be more viable for end-game bossing. The set effect does not reduce damage, but instead you are given a chance to heal through leech effects with better DPS yielding greater return.
Assume that the set effect was instead used for tank armour - would it be as viable as power armour with no set effect? Probably not since end-game is all about getting the fastest kills and the meta would remain with Magic being top dog. If going with Melee, people would still use power armour and potentially get more out of healing from their vampyrism items from the damage bonuses. You may think, "but hey guy, the set effect would make it easier to deal with punishment when learning with new bosses" and I agree with you, but wouldn't that be better reserved for Achto?
I ask people to reconsider what it means to tank with Melee as opposed to the other combat styles because Melee has different problems (mobility, tanking multiple attack styles, limited effects when compared to Magic especially). This set effect will make offensive melee much better. Defensive melee deserves it's own time for care and balancing.
Actually you hint at a potentially great solution to this problem. What if we could make the set effect scale with damage dealt in some way in the same way that vampyrism did? That might satisfy the people who feel like, regardless of usefulness, that the ability doesn't "feel" right on power armour. I'll think about this.
Essence may still be how it works, the wording may have been wrong but the concept has changed and the point of the comment has been missed. Yes essence is still required as you have just said but the long term value of bosses like ROTS are still in jeopardy with this new system. By removing the PVM armours (Torva and Malevolent) from the repair process of the new T92 trimmed Masterwork Armour, it creates a massive long term drop in the Armours. Once the new masterwork and trimmed masterwork armours are circulating in the 10000s which will happen, the value of them will now drop too. Malevolent is literally going to be useless as an armour, masterwork alone sees to that, literally no one will use malevolent anymore. which in turn will make ROTS become dead content as the energy will drop. i please ask that this change is reconsidered and to look at the long term effect on the value of malevolent in particular. The original system of requiring the essence to keep the t92 armour running, made this problem non existent. No idea why it was changed unless the goal is to make bosses that have guaranteed income instead of fully rng based dead. Please think about this and consider the effect on the boss rots that these changes will have
This isn't a "new system". It changed to not require essence for repair a long time ago. This is intentional - the entire skills of mining and smithing need protecting far more than two combat updates do.
Definitely understand it's not your decision and such - I just hope the people who get to make that decision hear us.
The people who made the design (the combat council) aren't wrong. I've gone into more detail in the OP.
While I still feel like the set effect is better suited for tank armour, this doesn't really change the fact that tank armour still needs to be fixed, and this is a perfect time to do so, given that you're adding four new tiers to melee armour.
Jagex please, you guys have beat around the bush with this issue long enough. This needs to be addressed or it's never going to be.
I get where you're coming from and I'm frustrated too, but as you mention the update has taken forever already. Expanding its scope to include every issue that everyone thinks ought to be fixed because it's associated with melee armour would mean it still wouldn't be done in 2020.
Fundamentally this is is the Mining & Smithing rework, not a combat rework and not a melee armour rework.
I absolutely get that, and see where you're coming from. Like I said, I really appreciate the hard effort you've put into this. However, I disagree with what the combat council has said, and I'm hoping that players showing their disinterest may allow things to change.
It's not an issue of player power or voting with your feet or anything. I'll try to expand on this point by editing the OP.
I see. Would be nice to have a confirmation /u/jagexjack
You use essence to make the armour but not repair it. It's in the design document.
So you don’t need a full set of torva? 6 torva helms still give 12 essences and is cheaper than a full set
You need a "full set's worth" of essence but you don't have to get that from one of each piece. If it's cheaper to get six helms, get six helms. We expect in the long run the essence mechanic will probably bring the torva boots in line with the rest of the set.
And prayer bonus, right?
We have a bugfix to put a prayer bonus on masterwork.
Set effect is awfull. Please be ashamed. I prefer nothing over this misplaced effect.
This is the sort of constructive feedback I come to reddit for.
With the fact that you need a full armor set of torva and malevolent to make the trimmed armor as well as repairing it with only base materials, won't that make RotS essentially dead content? If you only need to use the pvm materials once nobody is going to go to RotS as the price of malevolent energy will drop significantly, which is where most of the money comes from. I thought the essences were a good idea, why did you change them? Maybe the amount of essence you needed could have been changed, but now making the pvm materials only needed once just doesn't make much could sense to me. It made Nex more appealing as well as kept RotS in the same state with the essence method in place. You would use the trimmed masterwork most likely for higher tier bossing, which I would expect need some sore of pvm materials to upkeep.
TLDR: the essence method was better than making people have to use a full set, why did there need to be a change (other than the amount of essence needed)
Essences is still how it works if you check the full design. I'll reword the summary slightly to avoid this confusion.
How would the Dot work with say enhanced devoted, would each hit have a chance to proc or only the initial hit?
You'll have to test this out on the beta. I don't know how it interacts with a lot of other effects as I didn't do the implementation (and I don't know the combat code at all).
Will trimmed masterwork degrade in elite dungeons? Also, why are ed1 and ed2 giving t92 upgrades to existing t90 sets, but t92 melee set requires t80 AND t90, and none of it from ed3?
Because this design predates ED1.