Ninjawizards

Hi thanks for the communication with the community, I think that's so important for a successful ongoing game and something you guys have been rocking. However, going back to Raze my question is this; why give her that ult? I understand the rest of her kit, even if I think her damage is too strong at the moment, but her ult just seems to go against the vision of the game as laid out in the beginning of the video. The dev in the video discusses how to make it easier to play against but that's ignoring the core of the issue imo. Raze should not exist in her current state and I think it's going to hurt the game going forwards if she and other characters after her continue with the same design philosophy.

Just to start off, I'm not a designer so it's important to set that context up front! I'm on Insights, specifically on Gameplay, so I'm responsible for things like data informing game balance, playtesting content in development, gathering feedback from players via surveys and labs, etc. I work closely with designers and the balance team, but I don't design anything - I gather data and sentiment on the stuff they make and work with them to help inform our decisions going forward.

So, I'd default to one of our designers around why Raze has this specific ult, but I can speak to it philosophically. Raze's ult is 6 points. It is very lethal, requires near-line of sight (has a small aoe, so you can hit people in corners, but you can't hit them through walls), and is on a tight time window after being equipped to be used. It's definitely sharp ability, but I personally don't feel it's fundamentally broken and can be used as a tactical tool to play around. Compared to other 6 point ults, lik...

InriSejenus

So what you are saying is against a Raze you forfeit control of up to 70% of the map just because she has ultimate. I say 70% because essentially all of the maps proceed into chokes either at the round start walls or right in between them. On either side, it frankly doesn't matter, if your "solution" is what is opted into for organized play then everyone on the team with Raze ult gets a free pass to just push up. On Split this will give a HUGE advantage as it gives them control of mid essentially for free. On Haven and Bind it is more complicated to describe what real estate is gained for free because it depends on whether you or on T or CT side with her ult but either way it gets you free control of a significant portion of the map.

Just to reiterate, it is not using her ult that gives her this advantage - which I would find quite reasonable (to an extent that is basically what Phoenix's ult does). Instead it is just the threat of it existing that gives you this benefit, because as you said you need to concede territory without even knowing if it will be used at the start of the round.

I am entirely open to ideas on how that is healthy.

Yeah, I hear you on this - ceding ground all the time isn't a viable strategy. I'm not a designer, so I'm not an authority on this, but I can speak to my experience at least - I hope it can help a bit. There's two things that I personally have found in spaces like this:

One, it helps a lot that Raze doesn't start the game with her ult - you've gotta play a few rounds before then. By then, I know where Raze has historically been playing, and I respect that portion of the map a bit more instead of ceding everything. She can obviously mix-up and show up elsewhere, but then hopefully we have a bit of information that can help my team on the other side of the map by inferring which agent she could've swapped with. There are basic abilities that also create "invisible pressure" like that - Sova's dart being a prime example. Obviously Raze's ult's output is a lot more severe, so I feel your frustration, but I do think it can lead to some interesting tactics if both teams are playing around ...

InriSejenus

I'm picking up what you're putting down - there is a cost-reward to sitting on an ultimate like that for the threat and I recognize that. I also know that in the video he specifically mentions wanting to reach a point where she is not a "must pick" character for all comps.

My two big points are: First, just that she is currently the only character with this function and as such in order for her to reach the point where she is not a must-pick she will have to be weakened significantly. Second if/when she is not the only character like this then what is the game going to be like? Two characters staggering their ultimates which either gain free map area or get a huge advantage by picking up kills for free only seconds into the round will be very problematic.

I am fully aware that this falls under a "slippery slope" fallacy and that there is still a cost to only having one Raze on your team (I often feel it when I am entirely unable to smoke, flash, heal, reveal, etc. because I am just a damage machine), much less having 2 should we find out in the future that she has a sister. Having two characters who are "selfish" on your team would be quite painful from a team play perspective. I just think that the consistency, speed, and magnitude of her damage output when played well is just far too much.

Yeah, I totally feel you on this.

For your first point - yeah, Raze is the only character who has such lethal punishes, even if she's gated in applying them. I do think Phoenix, Jett, and Sova can apply some "invisible pressure" at round start with their ults, but it's less severe so I feel you. I think you hinted at my response here later in your comment, but our hope is that accessing that power should come with tradeoffs that do feel meaningful - giving up a Sage's stall/heal power or a Viper's zone control to get Raze's lethality should feel like an interesting choice. To your point, if it feels like not a choice at all, we've fucked up and should swing in with some changes. I think we're all on the same page here.

To your second point, yeah I agree that we have to be methodical in how we add things like this. Ultimates are allowed to be disruptive, as we want them to feed into a team's tactical decision making loop for each round, but if there are too many that exert the same t...

Unroqqbar123

The thing is, I get your point that you have to play around her abilities etc (which i dont agree with, because it feels too strong when the whole team has to play around character). But secondly, there are many players complaining about her. It is basically one of the bigger critiques of this game at the moment. She is just too strong and frustrating to play against and there is no fun in it. Im having nightmares about the ‚beep beep beeps‘ and then im dead.. Are there any ideas to already to adress this? Balance changes?

And yeah, for me personally, im worried that you gonna introduce more characters like this, and the game will be a nightmare to play against, being scared everywhere one the map to get one hitted and needed to ‚play around‘ her kit..

Oh yeah, I'm trying to speak to the philosophy on paper but that doesn't mean that we don't care about the pain players are experiencing. The balance team is committed to making the game numerically balanced as well as an enjoyable experience, and we hear the frustration around Raze. We're definitely looking at some changes to make soon.

dingo_pepperoni

Please dont be like OW and patch twice a year

No need to worry on this one - we'll be involved more frequently than that. Like Trevor said in the video, we don't want to commit to a specific cadence right now because we want to figure out what works best for the game's health and community, but it's incredibly safe to say that we'll be patching much more frequently than 6 months.

We'll be gathering feedback from you all over the course of closed beta (and past that) on topics like this - how balanced you feel various pieces of the game are, how you feel about the current rate of change in the game, etc.

MrBuffington

Do you know if we'll be getting email surveys like riot has done in the past or will it mostly be gathering feedback from places like Reddit/Twitter etc? Thanks!

You’ll definitely be getting email surveys, and the ones about gameplay content and balance will almost certainly be written by yours truly. Building surveys and analyzing data from them is one of my responsibilities on the team. We’ve sent out a few already, actually!

tacticalAlmonds

melee only though. The big change imo is that you can walk without making noise. huge.

It's worth calling out that walking in the slow field is even slower than normal walking - it'll still take you quite some time to get through, but should reduce some of the free information and certainty of safety that Sage gets when throwing her slow orbs currently. We felt giving players a slow, silent option adds more texture to the entire ability instead of the previous iteration, "make noise or don't interact with it"

Bluxen

I like that they reduced Raze's grenades to 1, but I feel like they weren't even the problem with her. Her ulti is the problem. You can react to her grenades, but you just can't react to her ulti. Once she sees you, you're just dead. Or, well, she doesn't even need to see you most of the times.

On that point - we want to continue gathering data from this change to see how effective these nerfs will be, but there is a change we're shipping on audio clarity for the ult. When she uses her ult, you'll not only hear her voice line, but also an equip sound for her rocket launcher that can be attenuated in 3D - similar to how you can hear Phoenix's fire coming from a specific location when he starts ulting. Basically, if Raze ults nearby you, you should be able to audiolocate her based off of the rocket equip sound and play accordingly.

This may still not be enough information, especially with Razes who are good at Satcheling themselves forwards to augment their speed with their ult out, but it hopefully will provide better texture to the information you're getting and we can work from there. Rest assured we will continue to make changes if she's not meeting our goals here!

SeulBear

i got a general question..how can i provide feedback?
do i just post here on reddit on random posts? is there an official "submit feedback" button somewhere?

We definitely watch Reddit, Twitter, etc. but also send out periodic surveys to gather player opinions on a variety of topics; just spinning things up right now.

multigrain_cheerios

so just want some clarification, does the silent option only affect walking in the slow or does it affect all movement through the slow area (running, jumping, etc)?

Only walking in the slow! Running and jumping will still make noise.

PM_UR_NSFW_ALT

I think her ult plays ok. It seems like it is too easy to get points for given her 'free' lethality. We'll see how the one grenade changes the feel of it overall.

Yeah, hopefully with grenade change will also lower the amount of kills and ult points she's generating as well. We're definitely keeping an eye on things.

SHAWNANOMALY

Glad to hear that the Devs don't see Raze as OP despite the loud crying. The slight nerf with the nades is a nice concession. Those that found her annoying because they didn't counter/respect her are still going to cry about her though they will be without the excuse about being doubled naded.

Raze is a good agent, but isn't grossly strong by the numbers by any means - we're looking at fractions of a percentage difference in terms of her performance compared to other agents, and we've been watching her performance decline over time as players get more experience in the game and playing against her.

That being said, some of her abilities aren't meeting our clarity goals for how severe their punishment is, so we're hoping these changes will help (there's actually a lot involved in those audio changes there). On top of that, reducing it down to 1 grenade will encourage Razes to be more thoughtful about their utility, and rewards good Razes by giving them access to more grenades than the baseline with kill resets.

She's strong enough that she can take a thwack on the head right now and stay perfectly viable, while also giving everyone a bit more breathing room and information to get comfortable. If she ends up being too weak after these changes as time goes on, we can always ...

dydx4j

please stop watching reddit

Let me clarify - we use Reddit and Twitter to stay in touch with the community and communicate about the game. One of my roles on the team is to provide data for us to make decisions off of though, which is why we utilize things like surveys and data analytics to gather objective measurements of sentiment and content performance. Valorant's a global game and we can't keep in touch with player sentiment just by checking out some English-speaking social media channels from time to time, which is why we have these other sentiment gathering tools to lean on.

One of our core tenants on the balance team is to not "kneejerk" and be methodical, thoughtful, and data-informed with our changes, so if you're worried about us freaking out over Reddit threads we've all been through it before on League and other game dev jobs in the past.

mloofburrow

It felt bad having a Sage orb fall at your feet and literally not being able to move because it would give away your position. Even if it is slower it's still a really good change.

P.S. - I didn't see it in the patch notes, but the tooltip for Armor is broken. It says it reduces damage by 50%, when in reality it absorbs damage. Same amount of damage goes out, it is not reduced. And it absorbs 66% of damage taken, not 50% as displayed in the tooltip. Sorry, I'm an MMO nerd, so precision of language is important. :)

No apologies needed, this bothers me too (also an MMO nerd). I'll look into this

IkeKap

Can you consider in game surveys as well. It would make providing feedback in a directed manner a lot easier

We're looking into this now, just not feasible with the current state of the client in beta. Hoping we can add it down the line!

Usgai

I wish I could shake your hand irl. Ornn mains are rare

There are dozens of us!

IWillNameMyChildZoe

Project ALF

Cactopus' message has finally been decoded

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/dfzid1/save_the_date_celebrate_10_years_with_us_on_1015/f37i05s/

Twertell

Gotta love my horn

Ornn mains unite