JoshQuest1

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine the out of game time is higher for ARAM on overage for those 160 games vs SR 100 games.
(5 games a day for ARAM vs 3 games a day for SR, in theory ARAM and SR should be 01:30 (hh:mm) a day, but does the process of getting into (and out of) more games make it longer practically.)

I'm really curious if you have data on out of game time relating to events.

You're right, but that time to get into a game is consistent, no matter which version of the token mission you use.

Cypherous2

Where are you getting "only earning half the tokens for the same number of games played" from? Games are 29 minutes on average and according to your no source math you need 34 minutes for 10 tokens

No source? its literally in their own FAQ, you get 6 points per minute for a win and 4 points per minute on a loss on SR and ARAM

https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/quick-gameplay-thoughts-12-3-event-mission-points/

ARAM and Event Game Modes grant 4 points per minute played, or 6 points per minute played if you win. This includes game modes like URF, One for All, and Ultimate Spellbook. In other words, these will grant points at the same rate as PvP SR games.

So yeah its 33.3333333 minutes for a match rounded up to 34, so if you want to be pedantic about that knock yourself out

you are getting like 7% less tokens which is around 30-40 tokens assuming you get around 2200 tokens per pass (including the mission tokens).

Because for the same number of matches played, you are going to be averaging less

If i win 2 20 minute games of SR and thats all i can play for the day i've earned 10 tokens instead of the 20 i earned before, not everyone can dedicate maximum hours to playing league

So now lets assume you play 100 games in the month with a 50% winrate and use the average game length of 29 minutes

Previously you would earn 750 tokens, 50 x 10 and 50 x 5

So for 100 matches of an average of 29 minutes each you will earn 8700 points for wins and 5800 points for the losses for 720 tokens, which would match your number

My games don't tend to average 29 minutes as i mainly play ARAM, which is a substantial nerf to the amount of tokens i would earn as a 20 minute win would give me 6 tokens and if we assume i can do 3 matches in the same time 2 average length matches complete i earn 18 tokens for 3 wins compared to your 10 tokens for 2 wins

So yeah not quite half but i would call an extra 80% a not insignificant amount of tokens

So yes for the SR only players they probably won't notice as large a decrease for time spent, but for ARAM players thats a massive hit

I'd just like to drop in here and use your example above to show that ARAM is essentially the same amount of progress in the next event as it is in today's event.

In your SR example above, you use 100 games of SR at 29 mins average = 2900 minutes of gameplay in total.

Let's say your ARAM games are 18 minutes on average. I suspect they're slightly longer in reality, but 18 mins works for me. Let's convert that time spent playing to get number of ARAM games in a month:
2900 / 18 = 161.11 games (we'll use 160 to make the next bit nice and clean).

With a 50% win rate... 80 wins x 6 tokens = 480 tokens
80 losses x 3 tokens = 240 tokens
Total tokens = 720 tokens

Identical to what you'll earn in the next pass from 2900 minutes of gameplay.

Luminite204

Yeah I did, but so is the case in the current system too. You get tokens from your milestone missions and free missions as well, in addition to the weekly missions.

However, the infinite token bank mission is in parallel to these sources of tokens, which doesn't seem to be the case given the information that we have seen so far.

Again, we obviously don't have all the information at this point about how the whole system is balanced but based on how you guys have nerfed the overall loot and event system throughout the years, I don't really have high hopes.

It seems more like the whole event system is repackaged with a better UI and more sneaky nerfs. I could be wrong but I would love to have some comment from you in terms of overall value increase/decrease. But again, like before, you are not going to comment on this and all of the effort I put in my comments/posts will be in vain since you'll likely just ignore

The infinite token mission will be retired. Level 51+ repeats forever and awards only tokens. The token payout each level from 1-50 includes the amount of tokens you'd have gotten from the infinite token mission today already, in addition to larger token amounts on some of the levels to match today's free token mission payouts.

No nerfs have ever been intended, and we've tried to make it right with the 150 tokens and an orb, releasing perhaps later than today.

bz6

I like how exclusivity and prestige are getting a bit more attention. Are there any plans to truly make some content unobtainable ever? I feel this notion of truly exclusive content has gone from gaming. Maybe due to a shift in societal perspectives, idk.

But I would love to see stuff rewarding veterans, people that have invested in content, or god forbid exclusive skins or content or achieving landmark gameplay milestones. Reaching a certain level, different skins for higher tier ranks, Clash specific skins, reaching some specific mastery points on a champion; stuff like that.

/u/Rovient

Well we have the end of season skin (and chromas) for reaching different ranked tiers, but that's all I know of as far as gameplay is concerned.

PM_Cute_Ezreal_pics

Tbh i dont mind if its done right

It's literally the same shit we have right now but it looks like a normal pass. You still need to do the quests to get the rewards, and still need to farm tokens to buy the Prestige Skin, borders, chromas and orbs, they're not even added into the level progression as rewards.

One would think the Prestige skin would be the level 30/40/50 reward, but nope.

Some people don't want the Prestige skin, so those players get to spend their Tokens on whatever they prefer!

Luminite204

by giving you one orb and 150 extra tokens; hardly fair to call it fixing something.

And if I understand correctly, the new pass will have the infinite token mission at the very end (level 50+). Which means that you won't be getting these tokens in the beginning of the pass parallel to the milestone missions and free missions like you do today.

So yeah, new pass is likely going to be even worse and more predatory. Big surprise

Token drops are on every level of the pass, if you take a look at the video.

Extra detail missing from the announcement is that the Pass "Milestone Missions" requirements have also been lowered by about 30%.

Edit: it wasn't missing. I just can't read, it seems.

averagekid18

I like how he never responded to your rebuttal.

Was asleep.

Great post and analysis! I honestly want to say we DO want the event tokens to be the same progression rate as before.

I know that players of reddit don't believe me when I say this, but the event changes are NOT designed to stealth Nerf token gains. If it turns out earning rates are worse off for legitimate players, we will absolutely adjust!

Follow-up question: if you run your simulation again with 600 points for the token bank and 30 tokens per payout, what results do you get?

BioIdra

'I certainly meant no respect' is the best Freudian typo ever here

Yeah, oof. 😐

AttackBacon

I'm really disappointed in this reply.

I've been playing League since early beta. I'm 35 with a young kid and an intense career. I really enjoy CoOp as League is one of my favorite games but CoOp is the only format that is low stakes enough for me to reliably be able to play it anymore (both psychologically and practically). This change essentially means the passes are no longer an interesting purchase for me.

I understand that CoOp is not a priority for the team, but there are a lot of people that enjoy it. I'm sure your own metrics attest to that. Not everyone in there is simply there to grind. Being relegated to second-class citizen status after spending years in League (not to mention thousands of dollars) and then having a Rioter make this post is pretty lame, I must admit.

I certainly meant no respect to coop-vs-ai players. I can absolutely see how that comes across, but I was asking the OP if they enjoyed playing those 30 games, or were they doing just for faster event progress?

Either way, it certainly does read as a really lame post. Please accept my full apology.

ScoopJr

/u/Rovient

Care to elaborate?

It's an unfortunate downside of the way repeating missions (and mission chains today) work, which we hope to address at some point in the future, but to say this is a hidden nerf is a little disingenuous.

In today's system, you get 5 tokens for an SR loss, whether 20 mins or 45 mins, but we tune our token values around a 30 minute SR average. So, a 45 min game is essentially 15 mins of token progress "not carried over".

Other benefits of the new token bank mission: hyperroll and double up are included. All game modes (URF/Ultbook etc) and ARAM now progress at the same rate as SR.

I shall repeat, I really want points to carry over from 1 mission to the next. It's just not something we can do right now.

DrakeAcula

So now i need 100+ games of coop instead of 30 to finish the the orb mission, not to even mention the other missions, and the system isn't even better for the people playing regular games. How fucking disgusting.

Honestly, did you enjoy playing 30 games of coop vs AI?

TheAbyssalSymphony

see this is a good change, but it doesn't change that for people playing SR this change is a net loss

How is it a net loss? If you're seeing a mistake in our calculations, please do point it out.

Phaazed

You're misunderstanding. I'm speaking relative to how previous passes worked.

For example let's use the play 30 games mission.

With the previous system ARAM took about 570 minutes of in game time to complete this (30 games x 19 minute average). Now it takes ARAM players ~47 games to meet the higher 900 minute requirement.

SR doing that same mission previously took 900 minutes (30 games x 30 minutes), so this is unchanged here. This is why a Rioter is only lying by omission saying that it won't take longer for most players. Yes, most players played SR. But this still is just a nerf to other modes being reframed.

The change is being billed as "everyone will spend the same amount of time" which is true, but the amount of time needed is the previous slowest mode. The only people who benefit were outliers who consistently ran long games (and lost more).

I also want to point out that if our tuning now rests in an unfavorable place due to more people than expected feeling forced to grind TFT or ARAM previously, we will re-tune.

sahkuh

We've also added TFT AFK checks for League event missions.

They say the AFK check is for League event missions, but didn't specifically say Token Bank. I'm hoping that we can still AFK in TFT to grind tokens since I don't have the time to play 3-4 games a day to play SR/ARAM. If that's the case, this will be the last event pass I ever buy.

Token Bank is a League Event Mission.

Luminite204

They have heavily nerfed the overall number of tokens you can get from token bank missions, the overall value of the pass has obviously gotten nerfed,

Could you explain what you mean? I'm confident our math works out, but I'd love to hear it if you see a mistake?

Phaazed

I know that there is close to no change if you only play normal/ranked summoner's rift. Your intent is choosing the most popular and longest mode to be the baseline at the expense of other modes.

If this were truly a change to help "even out" the play time of everyone, you would have found a middle ground between shorter ARAM games and longer SR games.

Right now the only people who benefit from this change are the few outliers who lose repeatedly in long games. Far more people are hurt by this change making them play significantly more, just because they play ARAM or the featured mode.

You get exactly the same points per minute for ARAM, Ult-book, URF etc as you do for SR. Exactly the same.

SelloutRealBig

If you AFK enough TFT games it puts you in special AFK lobbies where everyone else AFKs. Which then lets you get free wins by just playing... anything.

This is true, but not exactly correct; there is no special AFK lobby, it's just that your normal MMR is so low (after losing probably 90%+ of your games) that you're only matched with other players with an MMR that low.

Phaazed

It is intentional. They've tried in the past to make the pass take longer. This is just the latest attempt to do so.

We've converted general objectives for some missions based on the average 30 minute PvP Summoner's Rift game.

Riot knows the average game time is less than 30 minutes. This change is just to make people play longer for the same rewards. Their goal is to make the progress slower without most people noticing (greatly reducing the speed for players who played ARAM/Featured/TFT/vs AI.)

Nope, we're tuning it from actual data. There should be NO CHANGE whatsoever for the vast majority of our players.