ToTheNintieth

is odin his real name?

Yeah, it's pretty epic.

literally unplayable

I'd argue that any free time for Aatrox is such excruciating pain that it motivates him to go destroy something.

But Odin would be the real one who knows.

We're currently testing Hecarim changes for this patch. Ideally we find a way to just push power away from tank build into fighter builds.

It's possible that we need to adjust Chemtank instead. The problem is that Chemtank is a pretty reasonable option on a lot of champions and a extremely powerful one on a handful that are heavily driving the meta (Udyr, Hecarim), so nerfs would have pretty major costs.

Where are you going?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

That's impressive, congrats!

mattybobs

Thanks for these stats and your responses in general. I really appreciate the stats and your comments are helping me understand where you’re coming from with the balance decisions.

Now if you could just get me in touch with someone to pitch my Babe Ruth Bard skin “The Great Bardino”, then I’d happily retract all complaints I have with Riot Games

As a Yankees fan I support this.

mattybobs

What I’m concerned with is that these champs are being tuned to be balanced to where chemtank is necessary for them to function and building any other item is putting them at a severe disadvantage. Granted I have no idea what the stats for these champs look like when they build other mythics so I might be completely off the mark.

Udyr's win rate with various Mythics:

Sample size isn't consistent for each option though - the last two in particular are purchased much less frequently.

Rammus's other options are comparable to Chemtank (but it is the best option by general win rate).

Skarner's best option is Chemtank by far.

Not everything interacts with the system in the same way.

We examined item data before deciding to nerf these guys, since our team also put forth a similar hypothesis (that Chemtank was the problem). After a closer look, we concluded Chemtank was balanced for the rest of the roster, and these junglers were actually major outliers in terms of power level.

"(Aatrox is not a juggernaut btw)"

Ooh I love this debate.

MedicCasts

Just finished streaming so I'll jump in here. Fuck anyone who thinks they're better than someone because of the size of their wallet, or their status in society.

Also, I don't usually play Seraphine, please don't judge me, I need that LP.

Ah, so elitism based on which champion you play is fine though.

kakaleyte

Hey, I don't even play mid lane but there is something that i don't understand with Azir nerf.

this is balance framework

and 81% presence in 11.3 and 63% presence in 11.2 in top 4 regions according to gol.gg

am i missing something? are gol.gg stats wrong or not the correct 4 region?

These are guidelines that are must nerf lines. If a champion passes one of these metrics, we should always nerf them.

The converse is not true ("if they don't pass one of these lines, we don't nerf them"). There are still other factors worth considering.

In Azir's case his priority is dramatically higher than his competitors so he was a substantial outlier.

Spirit-Rush

Hiya. This will likely get lost, but I was wondering if you could consider transferring some of Azir's power from pro play to solo q. He's a really fun champ and it sucks to see him get nerfed solely because of pro play while he's already underperforming in soloq. (unless you have statistics to disprove this)

I'm sure it's not as easy as I'm making it out to be, but it seems like the only way to keep the champ viable in soloq.

I think we would love to do this, but I don't think there's a clear path forward there. Almost all of his strategic identity is deeply intertwined with his desirability in pro.

Th3_Huf0n

These patches are unironically getting worse...

I think I've heard that every patch for the last ~200.

I wonder where's rock bottom?

We're looking at Maw buffs next patch.

This was something partially explored, but the cost of growing Mythic Unique power over more significantly game time is that it was generally coming at the expense of champion kit power. Instead of more items becoming stats, and feeding into your champ's pattern, more items fed into your Mythic's pattern.

Players tend to dislike when they're playing the system more than the champion. It's tricky to strike that balance sometimes.

HS_Cogito_Ergo_Sum

Thanks for commenting Jag! Love your work on Kai and Sera even though they're a bit overperforming right now lol.

The main motif involving Sona mains' dissatisfaction is simply build choice. In Season 10, Guardian, Aery, and sometimes Dark Harvest were possible keystone runes. Now it's just Aery. The possible builds included Seraph's Embrace Athene's Sona for hyperscaling, Athene's Ardent Sona for objective control and buffing, and Lich Bane and Zhonya's for selective burst. Now it's just Moonstaff.

As it currently stands, we can only utilize one Enchanter mythic: Moonstone. I stress the diction here because this isn't a matter of preference like Kai'sa opting for Kraken Slayer over Immortal Shieldbow even though she could use the latter. Sona can't straight up use Imperial Mandate effectively (Immoblization is something only a select number of Enchanters can do) and Shurelya effectively (a frontline ability that only works for frontline enchanters, which include Rakan). Changing these mythics so that Sona (and other Enchanters like Soraka or Lulu) can consistently use them would be helpful. This is evidenced in the increase of the use of Chemtech Putrifier by most Enchanters because the CC restriction for Grevious Wounds was replaced by plain healing/shielding, which is the universal, most consistent thing that Enchanters do. There needs to be changes to the Enchanter mythic system.

As for AP Sona enjoyers...Imperial Mandate was supposed to fill that niche as the "aggressive Enchanter mythic". It didn't. AP Sona traditionally went into Carrot (Kiechris Shard) for early power and selling it for Lich Bane. Lich Bane is not a mythic item, and going Luden's on Sona was always a novice decision for a champion who specializes in targeted burst rather than AoE. The fact that Sona's AP ratios were nerfed because of teams exploiting gold gain through double spellthief's instead of nerfing gold gain double spellthief's also made a major hit to AP Sona. There needs to be either Sona kit changes or item changes to make AP Sona viable, while not reviving double support strats by trying to counteract the gold exploitation like you did with Taric + Yi. Do note that Double Sona strats focused on her outlandish healing and not the one-shotting potential AP Sona used to have.

There's also the issue of mana on both roles. Previously, Sona would pretty much live through a teamfight and rotation before her mana delepleted and if that was such a problem, just buy tear. Nowadays, you consistently run out of mana on Sona mid-fights; even with tear, it's usually not enough. Prescence of Mind, despite in theory making Sona great in long lasting teamfights, isn't really that optimal in Sona. What traditionally was the usual Sona build (PoM + Cut Down) has been replaced by Revitalize + Conditioning on both U.GG and LoLalytics because the expectancy to run out of mana is so firm that you might as well make most of what you've got.

There is one thing I want to stress, this isn't a matter of Sona needing buffs (although AP Sona would disagree). She is strong. All Sona mains want is for her to be able to be good in many different ways. The fact that every change so far only acknowledged the Healer Enchanter Sona as the only supported Sona archetype, while we see Nunu and even Twitch get AP buffs, is why the front page of Sona mains is currently irritated. And the people left who enjoy Healer Enchanter Sona is about to face Grevious Wounds buffs and Moonstone nerfs.

TL; DR:

• Don't buff Sona. Diversify her (plz <3) through kit or item changes.
• Do a Chemtech Putrifier, and somehow make Sona able to use other mythics.
• Do what you did to Nunu and Twitch for Sona AP builds. AP Sona loves damage. Not healing.
• Moar mana plz.
• Like Mage Mythic vs. Moonstone Seraphine, please recognize that there is more to Sona's identity than just "Aura enchanter" and support it. She can be a Veigar Ult enthusiast, a multitudinous Grievous/AP/Healing buff applier, or the champion who scales higher than a soprano.

Very well written, thank you.

I read this post, and I understand that you're saying you feel Sona is powerful but not satisfying. Then I read a lot of the comments - there seems to be a lot of differing opinions here.

That being said it's useful to see how a lot of players here feel like her needs aren't being served well with this item system. I don't have any solutions in mind immediately, but this thread was useful. Thanks.

iHaveRyzenAbove

Sona is primarily an enchanter with a low cooldown on her heal/shield outside of lane, and a moderate one in lane.

Seraphine is primarily a mage with an extremely long cooldown on her heal/shield that requires her to sacrifice damage or utility to use.

As a Sona main, if Riot changed Sona into that I would likely not be playing League anymore.

^ this

Sona's identity is "persistent aura enchanter". To suggest a rework should turn her into a skill-shot focused mage is...amusing.