AD Carry main here. Still don't see a problem with this.

Jhin is not a duelist. What's more, he's built for ranges longer than this. He explicitly has two abilities with 3000+ range. Rift Walk goes 500. I can't tell from the video, but I'd bet Rift Walk is stacked at least twice before the fight starts. Then Sneaky walks up next to the brush that he's in with his E and trinket both down so he can't check brush.

So why is the duel close? Because he took the actual worst possible fight. He eliminated every single advantage his character has, gave every possible advantage to the Kassadin, and EVEN THEN, still won because of a gold lead. That's why the duel is close. You fought a multi-stack Riftwalk Kassadin by letting him engage on you. You've been playing this game for ten years and you can't answer why the duel was close? I know you're better than that Sneaky. I know you're smarter than that.

You're absolutely right that if the roles were reversed you'd get slapped. But you'd also ...

Alibobaly

You're right... when the playing field is even that is. However there should be a certain point where your dominance relative to someone else's poor performance should outclass the "rules" so to speak. The point is not that Jhin should be a competent fighter against Kassadin in a 1v1, that's a ridiculous take. The point however is that Jhin when he's outrageously ahead against a Kassadin that is outrageously behind should be able to win easily win a 1v1 scenario because at that point the established rules of the game have been warped by a major discrepancy in items. It's not a common scenario and it's a little silly that you can get this fed as a damage role and still have absolutely zero agency alone.

Yep, Jhin is so outrageously ahead that he gives Kassadin the free engage so that he can lose half his health before reacting and still wins. Sounds like a slam dunk to me.

Here's the screengrab from the game state after Jhin's first auto. He gave Kassadin this FOR FREE https://imgur.com/a/X4AzTn9. He fully opted into this situation. Kassadin in no way could force that engage. Only Sneaky could put himself there.

The_Inverted

Follow up question, if you don't mind: do you believe ADCs are in a good spot right now?

Ignoring some of the stupid clips that are posted here, I do think that the role lacks agency and that there is way too much damage in game. In lane it's the supports who pretty much dictate lane and the moment we step foot outside of it we get hit with the junglers/mids/tops. I don't think the role is useless, by any margin, but I personally believe that something needs to change.

Now I'm not an expert so I won't suggest "XP changes" or anything like that, I'm just looking for an honest take here.

Yes. I've been playing a bunch of bot lane again recently, including Clash this last weekend. I feel super impactful.

Assassins are really deadly, yes. Lethality itemization has gotten stronger, so if the Zed is good, I'm probably always dead to him unless I have Chain Vest and a PD. But I've also known that Zed is in the game since the end of Champion Select and can make sure I buy those items by the time we're in team fights.

If I'm behind, well, that's how the game works. I'm not very useful on a 0/3 Xerath, either.

I've never felt AD Carries were bad. I still don't. Yasuo is a bit too strong in bot lane maybe, but he's like #14 in pick rate in that lane, so it's not that big of a deal.

NeXeMxD

1. Riftwalk was stacked, watched the stream.
2. I don't think delaying your dmg spike with a maw is a play, even on lucian(if you would play lucian adc of course).
3. That pick was needed to win the game. And he really didn't want kassa to get away, making taking baron risky.
4. Lucian would build a maw, but only in 1 v 1 matchup on mid or top.
5. Jhin snowballs extremely hard. I give you the point that teamfights were won by default. But c'mon this is challenger, enemy team didn't even try to teamfight, this was disengage after disengage.
6. I don't think getting all the kills, being very ahead, is worth getting onshot. Imagine an actual teamfight with flanking kassadin, who has a proper build, RoA into Seraph's, and is only one item down instead of two. Challenger kassadin would flank the jhin, eliminate him, then eliminate the other dmg sources with help of his team. This was the play for the enemies.
7. If adcs are such good balance, why do i see so many mages down bot? Because they are stronger than adcs at being adcs.

1. OK.
2. Yes, it's a reference to if you're going to build for the 1v1, there are items for that. As we see, Kassadin was building (slowly) toward anti-physical damage. Jhin was building toward tank-killing. For the price of that LDR, he could have had Hexdrinker (well, not with PD, but you know what I mean) and over 1k gold left over, which makes that fight easier.
3. Then he can press W to stop recall from the brush and wait for Skarner. I don't want to get into nit-picking specific gameplay interactions because that's not what this is about. The point still stands that he face-checked an assassin with two completed offensive items and blue buff while Sneaky's only defensive item was two Ruby Crystals worth of shielding in a PD. The point remains that you're playing into Kassadin's combat pattern. A 13-0 Xerath face checking a Kassadin with Luden's, Deathcap, Void Staff, Mejai's, and Sorc Shoes would also have a hard time winning that fight. This isn't Jhin-specific. This isn't marksman-sp...

DragonApps

I’m sorry but any person whose 15 and 1 shouldn’t be able to be 1v1’d by someone doing poorly. There is a fundamental disconnect in design philosophy if there’s anyone justifying how strong mage items are while saying AD carry items are in a good place right now.

Another way to look at it is, if you’re a kassadin in that situation, what makes you think you can kill someone with 13 more kills and 40 cs up on you? I remember a while ago where taking 1v1’s vs the not just fed, but double digits kills type of fed was considered bad decision making.

I think this is a worthwhile discussion, so here's what I think is relevant here:

Jhin is unequivocally more powerful here. This is the best possible fight Kassadin could ever hope to get and still lost. Granted, it was close, but the scales were tipped absurdly in Kassadin's favor here, yet gold in inventory won the day.

In any other remotely fair situation, this isn't even a discussion. Keep in mind, Skarner didn't touch the guy. He got solo killed in four basic attacks. Maybe a Q for good measure. He didn't use summoners. He just clicked on him until Kassadin died. That's the gold lead at work. Sneaky could have taken his hands off his keyboard and mouse and won that fight. (Small asterisk: The Jhin Q might have been required).

The point I totally agree with you on here is a fundamental disagreement of design philosophy. I want to break apart four concepts:

1. Stop talking about kills, deaths, and cs. The real comparison is level and value of inventory. I don't care how they earn...

Oxen_aka_nexO

If I'm behind, well, that's how the game works. I'm not very useful on a 0/3 Xerath, either.

Why is the 2/7 5k gold behind Kassadin useful then?

He got solo killed by the character he's supposed to counter face checking him. IDK what your definition of useful is.

XoXeLo

I agree with you on everything you wrote Phreak.

One other question: Do you think them being the same level is ok? Considering how many kills and cs Sneaky had vs Kassadin? Maybe that's something that needs some balance?

Eh, minions have always been a far greater source of experience than champions. In pro play, supports often leave the ADC alone, thus closing that gap somewhat. It's something that could be discussed, but I don't currently have an issue with it.

SheerFe4r

So if ADCs can't 1v1, and they can't bust tanks, wtf do they do?

IDK ask literally every pro team ever who still pick them in 99% of every game they ever play.

Ezzie350

What? OK, same scenario but Kassadin has flash up. Does this still apply, does it change the point of this post in the slightest? Most definitely not.

He fully opted into this situation. Kassadin in no way could force that engage. Only Sneaky could put himself there.

It matters because League of Legends is not an arena brawler. Range and distance matters. Jhin not using either is a direct nerf to how he interacts with other champions.

Electromasta

Is there an adc solo lane duelist I can play? I don't want to play with a support or vs another support. I want to be able to ward into jungle or make plays on my own.

There are midlaners, toplaners, supports, and junglers that can do better in solo scenario. People always say adcs are one dimensional right click machines... maybe that's because you haven't made them varied enough.

Lucian, Vayne, Tristana, Kalista, and Jayce are all fairly common solo lane marksmen.

Lethality Varus in mid lane, Kindred/Graves for jungle. On-hit Teemo and On-hit Neeko also probably fit the bill as well. As long as your desired output is "I'm primarily a ranged auto-attacker" there's a dozen or so scattered across top/mid/jungle.

Electromasta

What's the win rate for going maw or defensive items on an adc? Usually if I build defensive my team flames me and I do no damage. When I build damage i have a lot easier time playing.

I wouldn't go Maw first item in any case except in a 1v1 lane, and even then I'd probably stop at Hexdrinker and finish other items first.

I think almost every finished ADC build needs 1-2 defensive items. Sometimes that's Maw + GA. Sometimes that's PD + Scimitar. Death's Dance and Bloodthirster also count.

Electromasta

I think the difference is there are a lot more mage items that have defensive stats snuck in, and mage abilities are a lot stronger than adc abilities.

In older versions of league, battles would last slightly longer, and tanks and supports had a lot less damage and couldn't solo people. So it was easier to DPS because you had more time to DPS.

Right now its a weird spot where the only way some carry classes can by viable is if they have nuts amount of lifesteal. In general, healing is nutty high in league right now to deal with the nutty amount of free damage.

Do you think Legend: Bloodline is a healthy rune? because to me who's played for so long it seems absolutely nutty to get 12% lifesteal from runes. But its almost a necessary bandaid fix for the crazy high burst damage that is cheaply available to everyone.

Edit: What do you think of this? https://gamestoday.info/pc/league-of-legends/morello-was-completely-right-concerning-healing/

I think you've created a scenerio where you've buffed support because of how unpopular it used to be, that you've moved all the power adc used to have to that role.

I agree with you that items have gotten stronger on the offensive front. However, we've also been given a lot of good defensive items, too. But to be clear: Itemization has got substantially stronger in League of Legends. That's probably the single biggest source of power creep in the game. It's something absolutely worth examining.

But to be clear AD Carries have defensive items, too. Hexdrinker/Maw didn't used to exist. QSS/Scimitar didn't used to exist. Phantom Dancer and Bloodthirster didn't used to have shields on them. Rapid Firecannon didn't used to exist. If you wanted a spell shield you had to buy a Banshee's Veil with no offensive stats on it, as opposed to the much neater Edge of Night we have now. Supports didn't have access to meaningful amounts of AP or Heal/Shield Power like they do now. There are lots of things on the other side of the equation.

Meanwhile, mages always had Abyssal Scepter or other hybrid AP/MR items (Banshee's today). They used to rush Athene's Unhol...

Electromasta

I don't necessarily need ranged auto attacker, I just like dps > burst. Dot mages that can kite and have little downtime or cooldowns are also fun to me. Thanks for the response.

Cassiopeia, Ryze, and Azir would all fit that bill.

Electromasta

Yeah Death's Dance from my perspective is crazy op. Armor and Magic resist is a heal multiplier. Typically my ADC build is IE -> PD -> LW/DD because then I can last longer in teamfights when tanks/assasins target me and do more dps. And LW is a damage amp just like crit is even against non tanks.

I wish I could like Bloodthirster but to me its just +80 damage and +50-350 health near minions. It has a lot of lifesteal, but you can already get that from runes so it honestly feels like an overpriced double BF Sword.

I could try more defensive items, but I think I would end up only building ie and pd by the time the game ends.

I think Death's Dance is almost always better than BT as well but 350 flat health is pretty good. The shield lasts a super long time and you can still hit jungle camps to get it.

Electromasta

Well to me Death's Dance is the best item in the game because according to my napkin math it gives 30% more life and lifesteal. (in terms of effective life and effective lifesteal) It's actually nutty how good that item is. Lifesteal and armor/mr scale so insanely well together.

Not 30% more. You have to take a ~25-40% haircut on that because of armor and MR you already have.

Electromasta

Correct. I didn't really want to do the math because there are so many variables like penetration and armor scaling. (napkin math)

Right I mean it's vaguely accurate. Just 30% is only ever the amount if they brought you to exactly 0 with penetration. Just worth keeping in mind when you compare to flat health, which is a pretty straightforward calculation in most cases.

Communist_Turt

/u/phreakriot is an apologist for ANYTHING riot does. He is honestly stupid with some of his takes.

Or you know, I actually did the math on the runes and said if damage was increased, it was through items, and left that part open-ended since I didn't research that part.

But whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy. Don't let facts get in the way of your feelings.

verminard

I will forgive you because of that TheShy pun with Licorice.

Thank you, I was really proud of that one :)

Casting online is hard since there's an inbuilt delay between what your co-caster says and when you hear it, so I thought Jatt was done one sentence earlier. Definitely "They saw" but I'm OK with you pretending otherwise :)

Valkyrai

remember when a rioter was canonically dating nidalee?

FWIW, if I have the person correct, Nidalee was made as an homage to his real-life girlfriend. I absolutely don't remember all the details there, but the girlfriend came first. It's kinda like Ashe and Tryndamere marrying. Sure it can make sense in lore, but that's also literally Marc Merrill and his wife.