Posts by NeoLexical

AobaSona

Have you considered porting models from Wild Rift, just with better textures? I don't mean the showcase ones, certain champions like Syndra and Lulu actually have new in-game models too.

I really think Riot should consider some kind of visual update besides a full ASU. Something I've been thinking for a while is that for champions who already have decent animations, they could get texture updates + the addition of face animations, and model/texture/ tweaks.

For example: Jinx, Diana, Varus, Nidalee. Their rig and animations are already decent, but they're still outdated compared to more recent champions. Some of those would need new splashes and VO, but some like Nidalee who got one recently wouldn't.

We have considered it and experimenting! It's not as easy as taking it and just putting it in.
I think the bet analogy would be early day google translate. You can write in language and then the translator will spit out somewhat similar thing in a different language, but it doesn't really work and will need someone to comb through it and figure out what is wrong and what the original person is trying to say. Sometimes it saves time... sometimes you are better off rewriting everything.
We are still bottlenecked by some disciplines that are usually short. Thus, we are looking at ones that require lower work from those disciplines. Trying to figure out what works and what doesn't...what might be better vs worse.

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AobaSona

I'm sorry but hearing this is infuriating. Champions are getting updated designs in places like Legends of Runeterra, Wild Rift, cinematics, but League, the original game and source material for everything, is just left with ugly outdated and sometimes NON-CANON version of the champions?

This shouldn't be acceptable. It should honestly be considered a responsability Riot has with the community, not a favor. The "goodwill and sentiment" you get should be a bonus reward, not the whole point.

I'm sorry if I'm being rude but like I said, it's so frustrating to read. I care so much about the champions and their lore and visuals and IP and everything surrounding those characters and world, and to hear that Riot doesn't care unless it's gonna get them enough money is legitimately heartbreaking.

We do the updates because we care. Last year we updated Asol, Ahri, Jax and a handful of midscopes.

I'm trying to point out the reality of "can we get 10 updates a year" etc.

Pretogues

Oof... Your answers to this topic always give a "League is a business first" vibe. I feel like you're missing the point of what having 12-year-old models walking around the Rift does to the overall perceived quality of the game and brand. Most of your competitors have gone through entire engine changes (Smite, CS, Dota2). League ends up looking cheap/low budget in comparison. Imagine playing Counter-Strike Go 2 with some 1.6 gun models mixed in-between the modern ones. That's what playing with a Zilean on my team feels like.

I also imagine it's far less appealing to buy skins for old models too (Malphite will ALWAYS look like a nose regardless of skin). I dare you to show Corporate Mundo sales before and after the update. It also can't be good for newcomers. Think of all the people who watched Arcane or the new cinematic getting into the game only to find Jayce, Viktor, Vi, Ashe, and Tryndamere looking like LEGOs in-game. There is no way you're saying that from a business standpoint it makes sense to keep these models as they are.

Skins don't see uplift sales after updates, Coporate Mundo included. Its next to nothing compared to a new skin on the crustiest champion.

Mostly because those who want Corporate Mundo already have it ^^' they do not need to re-buy after an update.

millierinaz

Hi Lexi I want to ask about ASU hope you don't mind, after you guys showed the new concept for God Fist Lee Sin in the start season video, that means his legendary skin will be touched too right ? So I wonder if you have considered looking at the old ASUs for any missing updates.

Example like Pulsefire Caitlyn, you guys forgot to update it even it looks outdated than God Fist Lee Sin & Star Guardian Ahri only received a face texture while her tails & her model looks worse than the new one. Three of them released in the same year, 2017. Personally, I think if one can get update, the others should get too.

My team doesn't currently do ASUs! Skins team does!

cxrtoonz0

We did pretty heavy analysis for multiple updates. Most will try out the update for one or two patches and return to the champion they love best.

Yeah but this also factors in the performance of the update. If the update is badly done obviously people won't play it. That's like when aatrox received his rework and people disliked him because he was finally strong the patches before the rework and didn't need it at the time. If you gut the core champ and make him boring/weaker then obviously people won't play him. Same with aurelion when you guys removed his stars and changed his E, he was a lot less fun to play and the core of him was removed. Obviously not as many will like him?

We factored that in and we look at every update distinctly!

13Xcross

It'd be nice if we could get a clear idea of how many and what kind of updates we should expect in the future in order to avoid needless disappointment.

We announced the ones that we can commit to. We are trying things out on the side to get more for players, however those have risks of not working out (we had cancelled updates before Jax included a couple of times).

cxrtoonz0

The reality is, no update on a single champion will move the needle for a player to come back, engage in the game more etc

This sounds so blatantly made up just like Phreak's basement cherry picked stats.

We did pretty heavy analysis for multiple updates. Most will try out the update for one or two patches and return to the champion they love best.

Estraxior

I don't think there are lots of other companies or industries that will turn old releases into new ones without selling something or other

League is much more of a "changing" game than other games. So, it's more often that an old champion will stop meeting the needs/wants of the current playerbase. I feel like other games tend to have characters that fulfill this need throughout the lifetime of the game, thus a VGU isn't necessarily needed in those cases.

League's gameloop inherently creates the problem of needing champion VGUs so that old champions don't fall into irrelevancy. It's Riot's job to notice this issue, and not sweep it under the rug by saying "other games don't do it as often, you should be glad we're caring for you guys!"

I'm not trying to say that, I'm going to be real with you. Others are not doing it because there is very real cost and thus most companies would look for something in return (New game release that you would have to purchase, DLCs etc).

League is ultimately is a free game. If we pause everything to attempted to do this many reworks...I don't think we would be in business for very long. It also isn't sustainable.

Ex: If we scale up rapidly in this economy (when most companies are downsizing), sure we can support that for a couple of years. But what happens when all of the champions are updated? Where do these devs go then? Unlike other companies, Riot does not heavily let go their devs whenever projects release.
If we don't scale up rapidly, as we trickle in the update content... there is a very real question of which is more important and what tradeoffs we are making. Do the next couple of new hires go towards updates, or new mode, or new champion or new season? Generally, if we co...

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Primerion-ken

But lexi, might i ask why we r getting way less content if so? Like what r we getting instead of all these cuts and fewer releases? We used to get 5 new champs, 3/4 vgus, and multiple NEW mods a year in 2016-2018

I think there are alot of factors.
1) We have higher and higher bar with higher organizational complexities. Discipline bars (engineering, art, design, sound etc etc) have all increased over the years thus it is harder and harder to do. Moreover, we just have more people to align (especially Lore wise) as multiple teams are working in the same universe.
2) Champs team had lots of veterans that we are branching out and helping re-staff other teams. Eg: Modes. We did refill those headcounts, so as time progress things might speed up. Teams need time to settle in and work well together.
3) Active decrease of champions. We actively decreased the amount of new champions each year because we were looking to staff up these other initiatives.

I don't know much about how we got to the point where there wasn't a modes team etc. That was before my time here :)

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SkeletonJakk

Getting to see a little bit into the thought process of the how & why is really interesting here.

Appreciate the League Team for doing this AMA.

To be honest, if updates were a grand slam in terms of engagement (players coming back to play them, continue playing them, uptick in players in longterm of playing them), I do think there will be a lot bigger draw to doing them. Unfortunately, we have done enough of them to see that they may uptick shortly but have no long term impact or even mid term impact.
It buys us goodwill and sentiment, but only on some reddit threads and twitter. Some countries are more change adverse than others

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Zarathielis

The vastaya from freljord was described as mid range mage, what current mage would be considered mid range, sylas, ryze, annie?

And I really loved Hwei, I hope his designer Emizery will work on another new champion!

Last question: Will we get another champ roadmap in april? I really want to know more about how ambessa will play, I assume she will be a bruiser but so far no role etc has been announced so waiting for more info.

Also I loved the cinematic, great job!

I want to talk a bit more about the updates on deck in the next roadmap (Ex: Shyvana). Not sure when the best time to talk more yet. Maybe April, maybe later. I think with Ambessa, I'm not looking to spoil too much :D We have some neat things planned for her and spoiling it too early will not be as fun!
Sylas was the champion we ended up making last time we attempted to make this mage.

Salty-Prize-5347

Have you guys ever considered doing texture updates to base skins to modernize them without having to do a full asu?

For example just a better base texture for gragas so he doesn't look like a minecraft person, or updating base ekko's hair to be more like it is in arcane?

Feel like you could do a lot with just a little

We have done things like VFX and splash updates. However, some of these champions are pretty gnarly behind the scenes, thus if we were to update even textures...we would want to update everything if possible.

QUINN_VALOR_VGU_WHEN

Hi, dev team. There are over 60 champions in League who could use an ASU or VGU due to outdated visuals, themes, or gameplay. Currently, the pace at which we’re receiving these updates is roughly 1-2 per year, which means we may be waiting several decades for our favorite champions to get their much-needed overhauls.

While I know the most strategic avenue for the business is to space these updates out to keep players invested and looking forward to something new every year, is there anything being done to make sure some of us get to see these reworks within our lifetimes?

Here’s a list of champions who could at the very least use an ASU, if not a full-blown VGU:

1.) Alistar 2.) Amumu 3.) Anivia 4.) Ashe 5.) Blitzcrank 6.) Brand 7.) Cassiopeia 8.) Cho’Gath 9.) Corki 10.) Darius 11.) Diana 12.) Draven 13.) Fizz 14.) Gragas 15.) Graves 16.) Hecarim 17.) Janna 18.) Jarvan IV 19.) Kassadin 20.) Katarina 21.) Kennen 22.) Kog’Maw 23.) LeBlanc 24.) Lee Sin 25.) Leona 26.) Lulu 27.) Lux 28.) Malphite 29.) Malzahar 30.) Master Yi 31.) Nami 32.) Nautilus 33.) Nidalee 34.) Nocturne 35.) Olaf 36.) Orianna 37.) Quinn & Valor 38.) Rammus 39.) Renekton 40.) Rengar 41.) Riven 42.) Rumble 43.) Shaco 44.) Singed 45.) Syndra 46.) Talon 47.) Thresh 48.) Tryndamere 49.) Varus 50.) Vayne 51.) Veigar 52.) Viktor 53.) Vladimir 54.) Wukong 55.) Xerath 56.) Xin Zhao 57.) Zed 58.) Ziggs 59.) Zilean 60.) Zyra

While some of these champs may feel “fine” to some, they certainly don’t hold up to the standards of today’s releases, be that in terms of gameplay, visual fidelity, realization of thematic potential, overall uniqueness/integration into the League IP, etc.

This isn’t even counting champs like Fiora, Shen, and Miss Fortune, who received impartial VGUs without the voiceover updates or animation work that would normally accompany an update of this scale, or champions like Vi and Jinx, who are just as old as some of the champions on the above list and should probably get something to bring them into the new canon. Similarly, there are champs who’ve already received large VUs in the recent past, like Annie, Garen, Sona, Soraka, and Twisted Fate, but would probably be good candidates for another ASU or VGU anyway due to the fact their designs were created before the big League universe reboot/reimagining and thus have untapped potential or just no longer fit as well in the current setting.

To be honest, I don’t play much League anymore so I don’t have a stake in this game, but if there’s one thing that keeps me interested and coming back to this community, it’s getting to see these old, janky, yet beloved characters get the proper treatment they deserve by reviving them and bringing them forward into the new world. While I know redesigning what is essentially 60+ online products at once isn’t necessarily smart or realistic, I hope you guys at Riot are listening and taking note that we do want to see more of these reworks faster, because the characters and world you’ve built matter to us.

You are right when you say that updates makes no business sense. Updates are pretty costly, we are not just updating the base but re-doing years of investment into a champions (skins etc). I don't think there are lots of other companies or industries that will turn old releases into new ones without selling something or other. We also found that large updates actually have a pretty good chance to turn away returning players (your most loved champion isn't like what you remembered and thus higher barrier to return) and turn off some mains of that champions (you love the way the champion is now). Not to mention
The reality is, no update on a single champion will move the needle for a player to come back, engage in the game more etc. I know lots of players that are vocal on reddit do believe that updates encourage them to play more, but the reality is that new champions are a bigger draw with no comparison.

However, to maintain long-term overall health and game fidelity, we are commit...

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Zarathielis

You have said before you had a project involving heavy AI you couldn't do yet, any chance you still want to do that?

Our tech is not at the place where we can do that just yet.

FrontFeature0

Do you have any plans for Ryze personally, i think an Asol style CGU would suit for him, or you can make a small update like (ultimate change, adding shield or healing on his kit), but please do something about this champion.I also have two rework concepts for Ryze, you can check them out if you want.
1:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/106obno/a\_ryze\_rework\_inspired\_by\_invoker\_in\_dota/
2:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/11y4u4x/a\_ryze\_rework\_inspired\_by\_invoker\_in\_dota\_2/

I agree! I think the team wants to level up a bit (we have a handful of new to champs team designers and myself) before attempting. Considering this is like what... the 13th rework he is getting? XD

Riot Yelough joking tells me that he will do it when he is ready for a promotion in a couple of years.

LunekJones

What are riot thoughts on Viktor? Champ is pretty dead in high elo and pro play for a long time now

Surprisingly, overall his playrates are not that low. His playrate could be higher in higher elo etc, but it's not too problematic. Usually it's more problematic for a champion to appear too much in pro.
I think we would see how the new season shakes out first!

J0rdian

The splashart is better then the 3d model we saw. But still not great but better.

We adjusted the in game art and will be making some more touchups to his splash!

StrwbryAcaiPanda

Yeah I think a lot of the players asking for VGUs would much rather have an ASU and maybe a midscope for their champ. Seems like we're running out of kits that need full VGU imo

I agree! There are still a couple VGUs that probably needs to get done. But they are also ones that aren't THAT much upsides (ex Corki).
There are some VUs/VgUs that we SHOULD invest into that do also require time as we get deeper understanding/world building to figure out what things mean in Runeterra (ex Shaco and what are demons).
For some, its just not the right time yet. For others, its more that there are some quick wins that need the folks!
The more skins a champion has, the more work we need to put in...so it's always a trade off. But in any case, more info in the new year :D

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StarGuardianMain

HOW are they shocked that VGUs bring less engagement than new champions if they've been exclusively updating champions like Skarner, Udyr, Mundo for the last 3+ years???

Incorporating more popular champs means we have more players to lose and upset when we change the champion they love the most.

Zoeando

I am very curious about the this , As the champion is a Artist , and was done by multiple artists , Did people on the team leave their own "marks" on the champion? like on any story , design , vfx , kit etc...?

Oh gosh! This is a big one. Instead of going through every single one, because there were lots of hands and each had a profound impact to his development, I just want to say the Hwei pod and partners really came together to make this possible. It was really ambitious and the team really KILLED IT! Hwei to go.