Aether_Storm

Actually it does. The only difference between an aura and an untimed buff is that untimed buffs have an aura radius of 0.

So by hitting a radius of 0 you are now a target for your aura.

I bet If you somehow gave base aura radius to your aura targets, they'd start projecting the aura too.

Yeah, this is correct. An aura is just a buff/debuff with a radius - it can also have flags limiting which things in that radius it can affect, but not having the radius means it's just a buff/debuff, not an aura, so the flags don't do anything.

I bet If you somehow gave base aura radius to your aura targets, they'd start projecting the aura too.

This can definitely not happen. The buff/debuff from being affected by an aura cannot itself be an aura, because the two cases use some of the same variables to store different data.

Aether_Storm

Actually it does. The only difference between an aura and an untimed buff is that untimed buffs have an aura radius of 0.

So by hitting a radius of 0 you are now a target for your aura.

I bet If you somehow gave base aura radius to your aura targets, they'd start projecting the aura too.

Yeah, this is correct. An aura is just a buff/debuff with a radius - it can also have flags limiting which things in that radius it can affect, but not having the radius means it's just a buff/debuff, not an aura, so the flags don't do anything.

I bet If you somehow gave base aura radius to your aura targets, they'd start projecting the aura too.

This can definitely not happen. The buff/debuff from being affected by an aura cannot itself be an aura, because the two cases use some of the same variables to store different data.

jerkmoney

Oh so I tracked down the source for that and it seems to be from a forum post about mechanics discovered during the alpha and beta.

Not sure when that line was posted, but quoted by this guy and dated at least 4 months before what Mark said so that info is either outdated and/or just made up because it wasn't from a GGG source.

u/Mark_GGG

Would like to hear an official word about this. Does MF gear work on animate guardian?

My post you linked is still accurate* other than there being more ways for minions to have gear modifiers now than just Necromantic Aegis. Those still won't apply to the kill because the minion isn't the one being rewarded, you are.

The ambiguous quote about minion's loot bonuses being added to yours likely dates to before keystones, at a time when the bonus from the support gem (which is different in that it's attached to the action causing the kill, not the killer) was the only way for a minion to "have" any IIQ/IIR bonuses and thus would be referring only to the support(s).

*With regard to loot bonuses at least - Minion Instability does deal damage now.

jerkmoney

Oh so I tracked down the source for that and it seems to be from a forum post about mechanics discovered during the alpha and beta.

Not sure when that line was posted, but quoted by this guy and dated at least 4 months before what Mark said so that info is either outdated and/or just made up because it wasn't from a GGG source.

u/Mark_GGG

Would like to hear an official word about this. Does MF gear work on animate guardian?

My post you linked is still accurate* other than there being more ways for minions to have gear modifiers now than just Necromantic Aegis. Those still won't apply to the kill because the minion isn't the one being rewarded, you are.

The ambiguous quote about minion's loot bonuses being added to yours likely dates to before keystones, at a time when the bonus from the support gem (which is different in that it's attached to the action causing the kill, not the killer) was the only way for a minion to "have" any IIQ/IIR bonuses and thus would be referring only to the support(s).

*With regard to loot bonuses at least - Minion Instability does deal damage now.

Abdiel_Kavash

Would "Enemy critical strike multiplier against you is reduced by x%" work?

That would allow reducing the critical strike multiplier lower than 100%, which is undersirable for this stat, and is more expensive for performance.

Abdiel_Kavash

Would "Enemy critical strike multiplier against you is reduced by x%" work?

That would allow reducing the critical strike multiplier lower than 100%, which is undersirable for this stat, and is more expensive for performance.

TorsteinTheFallen

I'm more interested in monster part of the node.
Does "Nearby enemy monsters' Action Speed is at most 92% of base value" means it will negate any buffs to monster speed or increases will just work on 92% of the monster action speed base?

Neither. It means the exact opposite of the player half - if their action speed without that modifier would be above 92% of the base value then instead it is 92% of the base value.

This is not the same as negating all bonuses because those can still apply in combination with penalties to action speed to partially or fully counter them, just the final result can't be above 92% of the base value.

TorsteinTheFallen

I'm more interested in monster part of the node.
Does "Nearby enemy monsters' Action Speed is at most 92% of base value" means it will negate any buffs to monster speed or increases will just work on 92% of the monster action speed base?

Neither. It means the exact opposite of the player half - if their action speed without that modifier would be above 92% of the base value then instead it is 92% of the base value.

This is not the same as negating all bonuses because those can still apply in combination with penalties to action speed to partially or fully counter them, just the final result can't be above 92% of the base value.

Abdiel_Kavash

Thanks, it seems that I have previously missed the point of your post with the calculations (subtracting 100% and then adding it back at the end), I see why it is so convoluted now.

As a random thought, it has occurred to me that the player's critical strike multiplayer can be lower than 100%, at least as of this league, with the mirrored negative values on jewelry. Does this lead to any capping or unintended consequences, or is it just "buyer beware" (i.e. your crits will do less damage than non-crits)?

"buyer beware" (i.e. your crits will do less damage than non-crits)?

Pretty much this.

Abdiel_Kavash

Thanks, it seems that I have previously missed the point of your post with the calculations (subtracting 100% and then adding it back at the end), I see why it is so convoluted now.

As a random thought, it has occurred to me that the player's critical strike multiplayer can be lower than 100%, at least as of this league, with the mirrored negative values on jewelry. Does this lead to any capping or unintended consequences, or is it just "buyer beware" (i.e. your crits will do less damage than non-crits)?

"buyer beware" (i.e. your crits will do less damage than non-crits)?

Pretty much this.

Quakstab

What it actually does is look at the enemy's total critical strike multiplier (default 130% for monsters), subtract 100% from that to leave only the part which makes the damage higher (30% for monster with no crit modifiers), apply a percentage reduction to that value (e.g. 10% reduced from this stat would reduce the 30 to 27), then give the original 100% back and treat that as the critical strike multiplier to use for this hit.

Would over 100% reduced lead to negative values or is there a cap? Example: 110% reduced:

130-100=30, this is reduced by 110% (30*1.1=33) and ends with -3 (30-33). [Potential cap to 0] Then 100 is added back which would be 97%.

This would make crits deal less damage than non crits which is not intended as far as I understood. So I assume there is a cap to prevent this but for brevity sake was omitted in the explanation above. Is this correct and more than 100% reduced doesn't change anything?

The amount of extra damage can't be negative. In general, reducing things by values greater than 100% in PoE is prevented from negating the value.

Quakstab

What it actually does is look at the enemy's total critical strike multiplier (default 130% for monsters), subtract 100% from that to leave only the part which makes the damage higher (30% for monster with no crit modifiers), apply a percentage reduction to that value (e.g. 10% reduced from this stat would reduce the 30 to 27), then give the original 100% back and treat that as the critical strike multiplier to use for this hit.

Would over 100% reduced lead to negative values or is there a cap? Example: 110% reduced:

130-100=30, this is reduced by 110% (30*1.1=33) and ends with -3 (30-33). [Potential cap to 0] Then 100 is added back which would be 97%.

This would make crits deal less damage than non crits which is not intended as far as I understood. So I assume there is a cap to prevent this but for brevity sake was omitted in the explanation above. Is this correct and more than 100% reduced doesn't change anything?

The amount of extra damage can't be negative. In general, reducing things by values greater than 100% in PoE is prevented from negating the value.

MoeFantasy

I'd rather to have reduce reflect damage taken to be function like reduce extra dmg from crits.

That would mean it did nothing, because there isn't a critical strike damage multiplier applied to the reflected damage for it to modify.

And that wouldn't change any of what's complained about in the rest of this thread because increases to that stat are still additive with reductions to it.

MoeFantasy

I'd rather to have reduce reflect damage taken to be function like reduce extra dmg from crits.

That would mean it did nothing, because there isn't a critical strike damage multiplier applied to the reflected damage for it to modify.

And that wouldn't change any of what's complained about in the rest of this thread because increases to that stat are still additive with reductions to it.

Erreconerre

Sorry, I feel like a brought up a touchy subject lol

Nah, you're fine, I just dislike the misleading description on that specific stat because it implies it stacks with other things that it really doesn't.

Erreconerre

Sorry, I feel like a brought up a touchy subject lol

Nah, you're fine, I just dislike the misleading description on that specific stat because it implies it stacks with other things that it really doesn't.

Karindanslav

Slightly off-topic, but since you mentioned that increases and reductions to damage taken apply after mitigation, does physical damage taken reduced (by immortal call for example) count as prevented for purposes of calculating regeneration from Juggernaut's Untiring? And how does Untiring interact with Petrified Blood or Steelskin?

I don't remember the keyword prevented having a specified definition. Thanks in advance.

For physical damage specifically, we store the pre-mitigation value in the damage package so it can be referenced. The amount of damage "prevented" is the amount by which the actual physical damage taken differs from that pre-mitigation value of physical damage to deal.

So basically anything which lowers the amount of physical damage taken counts as preventing, with the specific exception of "damage taken as" modifiers, which apply before mitigation, and intentionally also before the pre-mitigation value is stored (because you didn't prevent that damage, you just took it as a different type).

And how does Untiring interact with Petrified Blood or Steelskin?

It doesn't, neither of those affect the amount of damage taken - they change what and how much you lose as a result of taking the damage, but they do not affect how much damage you take.

Karindanslav

Slightly off-topic, but since you mentioned that increases and reductions to damage taken apply after mitigation, does physical damage taken reduced (by immortal call for example) count as prevented for purposes of calculating regeneration from Juggernaut's Untiring? And how does Untiring interact with Petrified Blood or Steelskin?

I don't remember the keyword prevented having a specified definition. Thanks in advance.

For physical damage specifically, we store the pre-mitigation value in the damage package so it can be referenced. The amount of damage "prevented" is the amount by which the actual physical damage taken differs from that pre-mitigation value of physical damage to deal.

So basically anything which lowers the amount of physical damage taken counts as preventing, with the specific exception of "damage taken as" modifiers, which apply before mitigation, and intentionally also before the pre-mitigation value is stored (because you didn't prevent that damage, you just took it as a different type).

And how does Untiring interact with Petrified Blood or Steelskin?

It doesn't, neither of those affect the amount of damage taken - they change what and how much you lose as a result of taking the damage, but they do not affect how much damage you take.

sirgog

Surely this would be simpler if "Critical Strike Multiplier" was replaced as a stat by "Critical Strike Bonus Damage Multiplier". Base values 150%/50% for players, 130%/30% for monsters.

Then "35% Reduced damage from crits" can become "Hits against you have 35% reduced critical strike bonus damage multiplier"

Would make it easier for players to understand the interactions.

This is one of several potential changes to that system which have been discussed in the past as options for the long term. Personally I am in favour of something similar to this change, although it would certainly have consequecnes to other things that would need worked out if we ever do it.

sirgog

Surely this would be simpler if "Critical Strike Multiplier" was replaced as a stat by "Critical Strike Bonus Damage Multiplier". Base values 150%/50% for players, 130%/30% for monsters.

Then "35% Reduced damage from crits" can become "Hits against you have 35% reduced critical strike bonus damage multiplier"

Would make it easier for players to understand the interactions.

This is one of several potential changes to that system which have been discussed in the past as options for the long term. Personally I am in favour of something similar to this change, although it would certainly have consequecnes to other things that would need worked out if we ever do it.