JoshOliday

Hey Breezy, thanks for chiming in. I've heard a lot of these same things from mods like Jack and others in the past regarding the M&S rework, so it's no surprise that you are reiterating the same things here. I totally get that redoing the core mechanics of the skill like that has a much bigger knock on effect for all sorts of other content. Hopefully your comment helps others to understand as well.

I guess the heart of my question (and you've partially answered it with some of this) is whether we could ever get a full "rework" like M&S but broken into bigger chunks over time. For instance, now we have this woodcutting "refresh", but is the "plan" (not asking you to confirm content) that eventually the team would be willing to, say, rebalance the tiers for fletching or fire making down the line to match the new woodcutting stuff. I know a lot of frustration with skills still being the same as they were 20 years ago is the incongruence of content. I.E. why are there (now) 9+ tiers of wood but only about 6 core tiers of arrows. I understand as a veteran why this is, but newer players would not.

And even if the team does feel that those sort of updates are doable over time, there are still a couple of skills that desperately need core mechanic overhauls instead of just refreshes. Construction got a new viable training method, but the core reason for the skill (POH) just feels dead in 2023. Again, not looking for an answer here necessarily, just kind of questioning if there is room for bigger sorts of things if it can benefit the game.

Overall, I've been satisfied with the "refreshes" to Div and Woodcutting (at least what's been posted for WC), I'm just curious if there's room for more is all.

Also, I really enjoyed your dev Q&A a while back. I'd really enjoy another one like that if you feel like there's more to get into or more you've or others on the team have learned in the last few years.

Yeah the very reason we're doing it this way is to give ourselves the platform to do more in the future, without necessarily planning it/for it. Now that say the core of WC has been done, in another update we could do a mechanical rework to how it's trained more easily, or target some specific content tied to it, or repeat the same approach for another skill. It's very much like working away at layers of the system with each update. I can't say anything on plans, however.

Side point but you may or may not remember before M&S started, there was a poll that asked players if they'd like a full rework, or only a core rework of tiers and such (and maybe some other options). The full rework won the poll. I wasn't at Jagex then, but i can imagine that the conversations they were having about how to approach the rework was exactly what we're discussing now. What can we best offer players with X amount of time? I believe "only a core rework" was part of the poll because there were concerns fr...

JoshOliday

Actually astounded at what all has been tweaked here to be honest. I'm curious to hear the teams' thoughts on this scale of rework vs. the M&S one and if this kind of rebalance could be considered for other things in the future since full mechanical reworks are seemingly off the table.

Two major questions I have regarding this update specifically though is: Are logs being removed or reduced from drop tables like ore and herbs? And do we anticipate more uses for logs in the future? Gathering more is great, but without more sinks for logs, we'll just have a glut of cheap lumber.

Looks like mostly good stuff and I'm excited to try it out as woodcutting was a favorite skill of mine back when it was useful. Good job

I wanted to give you my perspective on your first question having been a part of M&S rework, and being involved early on with the high level design and some granular details of this project. I don't like using the word 'rework' sparingly but we'll use it for now :P

The bulk of what made M&S such a huge project was not the core skilling flow but rather every other thing that plugged in to both skills which had to be reworked. Each and every single one of these (invention tools/perks, potions, drop tables for monsters/rewards across the game, miscellaneous rewards such as Varrock armour, scrimshaws, quests, summoning familiars, worn gear and so on) required at the very least design work, dev work, and QA. Other things may have also required artists and audio for example. All of this bloated the time needed for the project.

From our learnings, the approach we've had since then is to do smaller, more contained "reworks" or rebalances that we can try and fit into projects on our road m...

Releasing alongside 'Soy Sauce Tsunami' and 'Ramen Noodle Tendrils' overrides

OMG this is HOT, i love it!!

Discussed with the team and put in a feedback job to have his voice line show while you're in Infernus if we get round to it :)

Hey, are you able to submit a bug report and send me your RSN. I've tried to reproduce the issue several times but seem to be getting the achievement just fine.

Seismic_wand

it might be because I was using a familiar override? But it was definitely the waterfiend familiar, RSN "Seismic Wand"

EDIT: Submitted bug report in game

I used one too on one occasion when i was attempting to find the bug but it still worked, do you remember what mode you were in? (Story/normal etc.)

I'll grab your save later and investigate further though, thank you :)

IAmObtuse

Easy fix could just be a line that says "and retains the effects from elder rune alloy spikes"

Yeah! That was my suggestion too!

Soft_Muffins

Yea youre not crazy. Got stuck at the same spot myself.

Do you or OP mind sliding into my DMs and sending your RSNs please? :)

Edit: got all i need

This gave me a little giggle. I get to say "I told ya so!"

Pre-release, Mod Shogun and I had a small back and forth conversation on if we should add the Elder Rune alloy effect text to the Abyssal variant. I argued that players would need it to understand they don't lose the alloy effect when upgrading, while he argued that it would be implied/inherent and also make the tooltip way too long otherwise. All of which are points others have stated in other comments, and all are fair.

Anyway, this post is my ammunition to add it, and I've written up a feedback job for it :)

Chigzy

No questions from me, one on one Q&A's are always amazing to read!

Thanks for doing what you do (:

Appreciate the comment :) hope you enjoy and learn something new!

kapperbeast

How do you choose what scenarios to test for an update? And how do you automate testing? Are there some tests that are performed before every game update or is it always case specific?

How do you choose what scenarios to test for an update?

Context dependant, we'll usually look at what changes are made and to what pieces of content it affects. We'll look at existing game mechanics and functionalities to see how they interact now. We'll look for any mysterious ways something could interact and so on.

And how do you automate testing?

As i've detailed elsewhere about automation, it's not something we've typically had but overtime are introducing it more and more. Feel free to check out my other answers in this thread for some more info on it :)

Are there some tests that are performed before every game update or is it always case specific?

Yeah absolutely, we'll look at typical flows of play and golden paths to ensure things still work as expected. Even this might depend on what changes have been made though.

SoftDowntown

Hi mod breezy, thanks for doing this.

I wanted to ask, how hard is it to overhaul skills like you did with mining and smithing?

Thats my question. Would love to see some other skills reworked, woodcutting needs some spicing up!

It's an incredibly long and difficult job. You first have to design how the new core mechanics will work and then finetune those. You have to do a huge amount of balancing to make sure it all lines up as you intend and that going for 99/120 is still similar to before. Then you have to design how literally every other thing that plugs into a skill would work. For Mining & Smithing this took more time in development than the core skilling just because of how much content there is in this 20+ year old game. You have to change quest requirements and any M&S mechanics in those, you've got to consider things like invention perks and how those must be redesigned, you've got treasure trails to consider like clue that require M&S armours, there will be a million random miscellaneous items from around the game that somehow plug into M&S like a collector's insignia, you'd have to adjust the entirety of the skill guides, and then you've got all the drops from basically every combat NPC ever to re...

PrimalMoose

This is less of a "game development" question and more of a "project management" question, but nonetheless one I'm curious about.

When tackling a new game update, how do you/the team manage the project/resources through the cycle? Do you have small core teams established that work on different focused projects or are the teams broader with cross functional staff working on different projects at the same time?

We work in scrum teams that consist of devs and QA, as well as any artists necessary for that project. We have a well established workflow at this point so it's easier for us to plan ahead with what assets we may need from each discipline (character, animation, audio, marketing etc.).

Our producers ensure things are going as smooth as they can at all times, although the responsibility also falls on everyone to be raising any concerns or issues and apprehending anything coming up. Some of my other answers in this thread will give you some insight as to how our teams work too :)

Gimli_Axe

Can you detail the lifecycle of a project (EG: how does a project go from idea to release)?

How large is an average project and how long does it take on average from conception to release?

How far out do you plan future updates?

Does Jagex (specifically Runescape) use agile, or waterfall?

How do you manage weekly releases? Do you use trunk based development where you have your main develop branch and have weekly release branches?

How commonly is Java used in modern day Runescape still? I presume it’s used for the server side still?

Is there a way for developers or QA to propose ideas for the future of the game and have that implemented?

Can you detail the lifecycle of a project (EG: how does a project go from idea to release)?

Ideas may come from a few places. First we'll look at what type of update we need to deliver. Then we'll take ideas from past brainstorms, player feedback, data etc. and developers will begin designing the high level concept, then core elements and such. Once pitched and greenlit we'll begin development that may go from skeleton > core mechanics > polish for example, and then release. That's a very abstract and high level overview.

How large is an average project and how long does it take on average from conception to release?

It varies a lot though so none of this is set in stone, but i'd say the average skilling update/quest ranges from 2-4 months. Bosses tend to take anywhere around 3-6+ months. Skill reworks and new skills have previously taken around 18+ months.

Does Jagex (specifically Runescape) use agile, or waterfall?

In Runescape we work in Agile. Some teams use kanban pe...

DarkSlayerEdge

During development of content, it would be quite common to be working in groups and it would be quite normal for there to be internal conflicts on certain aspects of the content that is being built.

How does one usually resolve or come to terms with conflicts that arise in these manners? Is a poll taken within the group? Do you just agree to disagree and call it a day? Doesn't have to be your personal experience, you could also share examples of how you saw someone else deal with this.

In pretty much every scenario i've seen this occur it's just talked out. Pros and cons are weighed up, design intention and objectives are considered etc.

Sometimes we might prototype something to see how A or B work, or pitch it to a council or the wider RS team to get opinions and consensus. Don't think i've ever seen something get so serious that people have "called it a day".

I actually enjoy when design problems occur because i love problem solving and it's very fun to work with others and explore ideas and consequences, and come to a conclusion that works (or works best).

Deivis8

How do you validate results of new features? I assume you are not really running A/B Tests, and in my experience then it is quite hard to measure impact.

This question is more for Data Analyst or Data Science, but still I hope you encountered how they do the work.

There are a few different ways we go about doing this.

One way is just via talking to players. We'll either jump in game and discuss content, or take feedback and discuss on various social media sites.

Another is via our analytics and data science team, they'll often provide data and attribute mechanics to that data.

We do actually A/B test various things too though obviously not with content updates for bosses and such. One popular place for this has been with new players around Burthorpe/Davendale/Tut Island etc.

R_a_x_i

Is it worthwhile to make a beta server to test changes instead of changing the live game? That way Q/A can be done by players pre-launch.

Beta servers actually take a lot of effort and time to setup and maintain, on top of already having to keep one live game updated and maintained.

You also need more resource and time to collate and parse any feedback you get. In the past we've also not seen an incredible amount of participation. Considering everything involved, we have to weigh up the effort required vs. the output gained.

That's not to say they're useless or we don't like them by any means. I personally think in the past we've used them exactly when necessary (M&S rework, weapon diversity) and i know there's people internally who are advocates for it too. It's just finding the right balance to deliver it.

5-x

How do you test multiplayer (team) bosses? Does it take more than one person, or do you run invincibility cheats and just solo it? Do you even do regular playthrough of a boss as a QA, the way players would fight it? Or do just just script it to check the phasing and boss states etc?

Cheers for doing the Q&A.

There's a distinction to be made here between testing for QA purposes, and playtesting for playability, for example.

In terms of QA testing, typically mechanics and structures are tested as a solo player or using multiple accounts and checking to see if you get expected results from whatever you're doing. Checking to see what occurs when you do an action or that numbers look correct and so on.

When it comes to playtesting, we'll group up with others and try to take the boss on as players would. This is done pretty regularly, Raksha, Rex Matriarchs, and all 4 fronts of EGWD had a wider team playtest once a week during development to ensure it was getting the attention it needed at all times throughout development. In the past i know we've even brought players in to try them out, and sometimes even outside of team playtest folks such as the combat council will try taking group bosses on together.