Yhojm

Sometimes the vision doesn't translate well to gameplay, and there's no shame in reverting changes. Just my 2 cents.

It's really hard to see people talk this way. "The vision" is the reason the entire game exists at all. It's responsible for more of the things you like than don't like but it's a term that's been co-opted by the community to be synonymous with "anything I don't like". Like I totally get that there are valid criticisms to make and my team is doing their best to make sure that the rest of GGG is aware of them. However, whenever I see someone package their criticism around 'the vision' it undermines the value of the feedback.

Yhojm

Sometimes the vision doesn't translate well to gameplay, and there's no shame in reverting changes. Just my 2 cents.

It's really hard to see people talk this way. "The vision" is the reason the entire game exists at all. It's responsible for more of the things you like than don't like but it's a term that's been co-opted by the community to be synonymous with "anything I don't like". Like I totally get that there are valid criticisms to make and my team is doing their best to make sure that the rest of GGG is aware of them. However, whenever I see someone package their criticism around 'the vision' it undermines the value of the feedback.

Aziraphale686

I totally get where you're coming from, but I'd like to put forward an alternate perspective. I think that the reason people keep bringing up 'the vision' is that they feel like lately 'The Vision' is being used as the main reason NOT to implement changes that they view are objectively better for the game, or necessary for some reason. Whether or not that is actually true, I have no idea, but it is the impression that I get. They feel like GGG is prioritizing 'the vision' over player fun.

I totally understand. I guess the thing I'm trying to remind people of is that it's responsible for the good stuff too.

Aziraphale686

I totally get where you're coming from, but I'd like to put forward an alternate perspective. I think that the reason people keep bringing up 'the vision' is that they feel like lately 'The Vision' is being used as the main reason NOT to implement changes that they view are objectively better for the game, or necessary for some reason. Whether or not that is actually true, I have no idea, but it is the impression that I get. They feel like GGG is prioritizing 'the vision' over player fun.

I totally understand. I guess the thing I'm trying to remind people of is that it's responsible for the good stuff too.

Asteroth555

I guess the thing I'm trying to remind people of is that it's responsible for the good stuff too.

And now is seemingly being used as a bludgeon to force mechanisms and changes that are overwhelmingly disliked. Is this really where we're at? That us making fun of "The VisionTM" is triggering to GGG staff?

Like I totally get that there are valid criticisms to make and my team is doing their best to make sure that the rest of GGG is aware of them.

And the rest of GGG is roundly ignoring feedback in favor of their own data/gut feelings. I have so little sympathy when all I want to do is to want to play this game, but can't even force myself to.

I only said that it's hard to read and undermines the value of the feedback. So if you're wanting to provide feedback that will reach us, you're now better able to.

Asteroth555

I guess the thing I'm trying to remind people of is that it's responsible for the good stuff too.

And now is seemingly being used as a bludgeon to force mechanisms and changes that are overwhelmingly disliked. Is this really where we're at? That us making fun of "The VisionTM" is triggering to GGG staff?

Like I totally get that there are valid criticisms to make and my team is doing their best to make sure that the rest of GGG is aware of them.

And the rest of GGG is roundly ignoring feedback in favor of their own data/gut feelings. I have so little sympathy when all I want to do is to want to play this game, but can't even force myself to.

I only said that it's hard to read and undermines the value of the feedback. So if you're wanting to provide feedback that will reach us, you're now better able to.

Spirited_Owl1114

People lose track of the good, because when you feel pain you hyper focus on it. I’m still having a lot of fun, but even as a casual player with 97% of the same drops I can tell you something just feels off with league content and most of my friends who play are saying the same. It’s also harder, even though we are all following a meta build. Feels bad to be at the same point in the league with a worse build for no reason. Also Juicing just doesn’t SEEM rewarding. I think it would be beneficial if there was an idea around how much adding something to a map should add to the rewards, something like each new scarab adds 1.5x the cost of the scarab in value, so there was a consistent benefit to investing. Not sure how to fix the crafting stuff since I don’t craft much, other than to say that Tarke had some good ideas I think. If it needs to be drop gated then make the crafts take some new drops! Also on communicating: I know the team I had responded and said things like “league content was out of line”… but it would help if you paired that reasoning with “and here is how fixing that will help us make a funner, better game by opening a design space or giving us room to x”. That way people aren’t guessing that all these changes are just trying to make things harder for hardness sake. Y’all are better game designers on your worst days than most of us are on our best, and lots of us want to trust you, but there’s a gap between what you are saying and what we are seeing. Literally more than half of the new hyped features with the league ended up being nerfs; how am I supposed to get excited for the next league?

Also yeah, thanks for all you folks on the community team do, it’s a hard job.

This is really solid feedback. Thanks! I will share it.

Spirited_Owl1114

People lose track of the good, because when you feel pain you hyper focus on it. I’m still having a lot of fun, but even as a casual player with 97% of the same drops I can tell you something just feels off with league content and most of my friends who play are saying the same. It’s also harder, even though we are all following a meta build. Feels bad to be at the same point in the league with a worse build for no reason. Also Juicing just doesn’t SEEM rewarding. I think it would be beneficial if there was an idea around how much adding something to a map should add to the rewards, something like each new scarab adds 1.5x the cost of the scarab in value, so there was a consistent benefit to investing. Not sure how to fix the crafting stuff since I don’t craft much, other than to say that Tarke had some good ideas I think. If it needs to be drop gated then make the crafts take some new drops! Also on communicating: I know the team I had responded and said things like “league content was out of line”… but it would help if you paired that reasoning with “and here is how fixing that will help us make a funner, better game by opening a design space or giving us room to x”. That way people aren’t guessing that all these changes are just trying to make things harder for hardness sake. Y’all are better game designers on your worst days than most of us are on our best, and lots of us want to trust you, but there’s a gap between what you are saying and what we are seeing. Literally more than half of the new hyped features with the league ended up being nerfs; how am I supposed to get excited for the next league?

Also yeah, thanks for all you folks on the community team do, it’s a hard job.

This is really solid feedback. Thanks! I will share it.